tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post1192057859093822013..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: Pharisees, Pelagians, and Catholics on JustificationJoe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-2245704332699366952012-04-03T20:09:36.912-05:002012-04-03T20:09:36.912-05:00"1. God gives us talents, unmerited gifts. T...<i>"1. God gives us talents, unmerited gifts. This refers primarily to Grace, but also to the natural talents we've been given."</i><br /><br />If you include natural talents and abilities, then you're a Pelagian because that's what he said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-20123251051886857182012-04-03T20:06:51.900-05:002012-04-03T20:06:51.900-05:00As to Pelagius himself, he uses the phrase "j...As to Pelagius himself, he uses the phrase "justified by faith alone" in his commentary on Romans, so HA!!! But like I said, its more fun to just rail against him as the boogeyman than to know what he really said.<br /><br />If you're going to go around claiming to know what Pelagius said and bashing him, you might as well spill the 50 buck to buy the commentary on Romans.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Pelagiuss-Commentary-Epistle-Christian-Studies/dp/0198269803/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1333501564&sr=8-2" rel="nofollow">Pelagius on Romans</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-54231942615656160722012-04-03T20:03:21.592-05:002012-04-03T20:03:21.592-05:00As for Pelagius, he didn't teach being saved b...As for Pelagius, he didn't teach being saved by good works -- all you opponents of Pelagianism are so stupid. You haven't even read what Augustine says about him. Nor have you read any of Pelagius' own writings -- yeah, his commentary on Romans survived by being misattributed to Jerome and you can read it, but that would spoil the fun of lying on him.<br /><br />It wasn't a question of being saved by works or by faith alone -- it was a question of whether we are able to repent or believe or do anything right without some magic called "grace" -- not real grace but Augustine's fake grace, for to Augustine "grace" is magic enabling power "Give me grace; then command whatever you want." Pelagius followed the definition of grace found in the OT : grace = mercy.<br /><br />So Pelagius believed we need grace (i.e. God's mercy) to be saved. But to repent we do not need "grace" (i.e. Augustine's magic enabling power) because God already gave us the power to choose right or wrong when he created us!<br /><br />So really its a debate on free will. Augustine, like Calvin and Luther his later minions, beleived basically that free will was lost when Adam ate the apple. Pelagius did not beleive free will was lost. But this doesn't instantly mean "justification by good works."<br /><br />Even so, I'd consider myself an uber-pelagian. I believe in justification by morality -- not good works, not the works of the law, just morality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-89478425065038040252012-04-03T19:58:30.735-05:002012-04-03T19:58:30.735-05:00So you're a Protestant who thinks they're ...So you're a Protestant who thinks they're a Catholic. Interesting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-80037761261077319242010-11-18T13:59:50.630-06:002010-11-18T13:59:50.630-06:00Thanks, Joe!
God bless you!Thanks, Joe!<br /><br />God bless you!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940745178193985942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-43329742585945069082010-11-18T11:51:40.360-06:002010-11-18T11:51:40.360-06:00Ryan, the headers seem to be radically different s...Ryan, the headers seem to be radically different sizes, depending on the computer used. Enjoy.<br /><br />Jae, well said.<br /><br />Michael, well said as well, although I think it's easy for people reading what you're saying to think you mean we need to work our way to Heaven. The sense in which Catholics can affirm that we're "saved by faith alone" is if both sides understand that we mean "faith working in love," of the sort Paul calls salvific in Galatians 5:6. And, of course, faith is the foundation we're building on in 1 Corinthians 3. I read a post you did on James and Paul on justification a while back, and remember really enjoying reading your take on it. I think you have a real sense for this stuff.<br /><br />Joe.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-32224020129590109682010-11-18T11:35:56.057-06:002010-11-18T11:35:56.057-06:00Dear Joe Heschmeyer,
12 If anyone builds on this ...Dear Joe Heschmeyer,<br /><br /><i>12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, <br />13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be <b>revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.</b> <br />14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. <br />15 But if someone's work is burned up, <b>that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.</b> <br />16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? <br />17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy.</i> (1Corinthians 3: 12-17) <br /><br />In these passages - <b>1 Corinthians 3:12-17</b> - Paul is talking about how God judges our works after death by using a string of metaphors (we are God's building; works are good and bad materials, etc.). <br /><br />Paul says that if a person builds with good materials, he will receive a reward (verse 14). If he builds with a mixture of good and bad materials, his work is burned up, but he is still saved (verse 15). <br /><br />If he only builds with bad materials, he has destroyed the temple, and God will destroy him (verse 17).<br /><br />These passage demonstrates several things. First, it demonstrates that <b>our works</b> serve as a basis for determining our salvation. <br /><br />This is contrary to the erroneous Protestant belief that, once we accept Jesus by <b>faith alone,</b> we are saved. <br /><br />Protestants have no good explanation for why Paul is teaching the Corinthians that our works bear upon our salvation. <br /><br />Second, the verse demonstrates that, if a person does both good and bad works, his <b>bad works are punished, but he is still saved.</b> <br /><br />The Greek phrase for <i>"suffer loss"</i> (zemiothesetai) means <i>"to be punished"</i> (<b>Purgatory</b>). <br /><br />This means the man undergoes an expiation of temporal punishment for his <b>bad works</b> (sins) but is still saved. <br /><br />The phrase <i>“but only”</i> or <i>“yet so”</i> (in Greek, houtos) means <i>"in the same manner."</i> This means that the man must pass <b>through the fire</b> in the same way that his <b>bad works passed through the fire,</b> in order to expiate himself of the things that led him to produce the <b>bad works</b> in the first place.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940745178193985942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-52524725893178337172010-11-13T13:55:30.371-06:002010-11-13T13:55:30.371-06:00Joe,
I totally agree with you and the inability o...Joe,<br /><br />I totally agree with you and the inability of the protestants to distinguish between two kinds of works.<br /><br />Galatians 6:2 <br /><br />"Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the LAW OF CHRIST."<br /><br />This "law of Christ" is not the Mosaic Law Paul opposed; this law must be obeyed for salvation.<br /><br />I think this is a confusion of the situation. Paul was speaking specifically against the Mosaic Law, not works in general, much less Church precepts (which Paul did demand be obeyed, Acts 16:4). And the Mosaic Law is inferior to the New Law of Christ as Mk 10:2-12 makes clear. The Mosaic Law didn't justify not because it was too hard, but that the promise of salvation wasn't attached to it as Gal 3:15-18 shows clearly.Jaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08949794711507726903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-45146339395290871432010-11-12T23:24:27.435-06:002010-11-12T23:24:27.435-06:00some big ole font in those section headings, snags...some big ole font in those section headings, snags the attentionRyan Howard (not the baseball player)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07368739451266274017noreply@blogger.com