tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post2746735072564852005..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: The New Translation: What's Changed and WhyJoe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-16696938654037223842011-12-27T20:38:54.038-06:002011-12-27T20:38:54.038-06:00Will blog for food... Haha I would pay up!Will blog for food... Haha I would pay up!scredsoxfan2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10162308671130564720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-54007439105520002732011-12-27T10:31:03.993-06:002011-12-27T10:31:03.993-06:00haha. But seriously, I think that at some point a ...haha. But seriously, I think that at some point a blog post on blogging (a meta-post?) would be helpful to a lot of people, though I understand if you'd rather avoid the self-indulgence or whatever. What is amazing is that you not only post daily (which is amazing enough) but that you also effectively moderate a forum going on in the comments. An amazing amount of work and sacrifice for somebody not doing this for a living--which, by the way is a good reason to write a book (you've built up a market and advertising platform for it and deserve to be compensated). If I were you, I would be trying to monetize this ala Mark Shea. Why places like the NCR haven't hired you yet is beyond me, but hopefully a book will prompt that.UdoCanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682264442545051800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-44501248680098441652011-12-15T20:36:29.546-06:002011-12-15T20:36:29.546-06:00This is very helpful, thank you.This is very helpful, thank you.Jillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13764733566802748781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-59500711929685573042011-12-15T19:49:17.744-06:002011-12-15T19:49:17.744-06:00Hear, hear for the new translation! Aside from all...Hear, hear for the new translation! Aside from all the points you listed, my humble opinion of the new translations' superiority is that its formal language 1) conveys the gravity and importance of the Mass, which is only appropriate and 2) I have to listen closely to the prayers because I don't know them all by heart yet, which means I'm able to appreciate them; there are some truly beautiful passages in there! And of course, it offers us a teachable moment to explain this most important aspect of our faith to people who might have heard some hub-bub about it in the media.<br /><br />In my [anecdotal] experience, my colleagues and friends in my age bracket embraced the changes either with excited zeal or simple acceptance; it is only the older generations who had to be dragged along kicking and screaming.Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09398904417243102605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-85086904080748531142011-12-15T16:43:19.046-06:002011-12-15T16:43:19.046-06:00This may be a silly anecdote, but I'm glad you...This may be a silly anecdote, but I'm glad you point out that it is a better translation. You could argue until the cows come home about what makes a good translation but ultimately it has to fulfil its purpose, and the old translation didn't do that. It greatly reduced the transcendent aspect of the Mass and weakened Scriptural references, which is not helpful.<br />It was also extremely free for a translation. If I were to return a client a translation with the same level of "free-ness", they would probably send it back due to its inaccuracy. The old translation wasn't even particularly beautiful or elegant. Just very pedestrian and inaccurate. Deo gratias for the updated translation.spraffmeisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02651988079265709782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-85307067538997263192011-12-15T16:04:55.865-06:002011-12-15T16:04:55.865-06:00I gotcha. Thanks Joe for all you do!I gotcha. Thanks Joe for all you do!Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288875157147852833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-2391706035046086342011-12-15T12:44:12.374-06:002011-12-15T12:44:12.374-06:00Taylor,
I think you may be reading this as an att...Taylor,<br /><br />I think you may be reading this as an attack on the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, which it wasn’t intended to be. I actually agree with much of what you've written here. <br /><br />For example, you wrote, “Also, while Vatican II does say we can use vernacular for certain prayers or chants in the first place, it doesn't say the whole thing has to be in the vernacular.” Agreed. I pointed that in the original post by quoting paragraph 38 of <i>Sacrosanctum Concilium</i>, which begins: “the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites,” before authorizing specific prayers in the vernacular. So it’s not just Trent that rejects an “always-vernacular” mindset. It's also Vatican II. <br /><br />But my broader point was that there should always be a concern for both transcendence and accessibility. If the Liturgy is like Jacob's ladder, it needs to descend near enough to us that we can reach it (accessibility), but it needs to also lift us out of ourselves (transcendence). I don’t see what the counter-argument to that would be.<br /><br />Even in the example you provided in your first comment, you’re presupposing that the priest understands what’s going on, and that the laity have at least a passing understanding. If there were <i>no</i> accessibility, the Mass wouldn’t even be a prayer: it’d be mindless incantation. <br /><br />I don’t believe for a moment that the OF lacks all transcendence, or the EF lacks all accessibility. As you’ve noted, one way that an EF Mass might encourage accessibility is by providing missals with translations, so people have a better idea what it is they’re praying. And one way the OF Mass cultivates transcendence is through the new translations, so that we’re praising God more reverently. But whatever the form of the Liturgy, we still see that dual concern for both transcendence and accessibility.<br /><br />I.X.,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-74636795594256306422011-12-15T11:56:10.556-06:002011-12-15T11:56:10.556-06:00Also, while Vatican II does say we can use vernacu...Also, while Vatican II does say we can use vernacular for certain prayers or chants in the first place, it doesn't say the whole thing has to be in the vernacular. In fact, the Council of Trent says "if anyone says that “the Mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only” (lingua tantum vulgari), let him be anathema." My emphasis, just to follow up with the need for accessibility, because what has happened is that the whole Mass, at least in America, is almost always solely in the vernacular.<br /><br />Otherwise I agree with your post, the corrected translation is great, and the propers are really inspiring. I'm looking forward to the Mass of Pope Paul VI gaining more and more reverence universally in the American church.Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288875157147852833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-62405663456569225922011-12-15T11:49:49.343-06:002011-12-15T11:49:49.343-06:00"So in addition to being global and timeless,..."So in addition to being global and timeless, the Mass should also be transcendent. It should raise our spirits. But to do this, it must also be accessible. The perfect prayer is no good if I have no idea what I'm saying, or what it means." <br /><br />I have to disagree, Joe. The Mass is the Perfect Prayer because it is the Mass, it doesn't matter if we in the pews don't understand it. The priest is offering the prayers and we are joining our intentions, pefect or imperfect, to the perfect prayer of the Mass that the priest offers on our behalf. <br /><br />Secondly, I hear this a lot as I go to the TLM, that it "needs to be accessable" or that we "have to understand it." Aside from this being a bit anthropocentric, I also find it doesn't hold much water. We all have or use Missals with translations on the next page (provided by the parishes, the red booklets), and after doing it a while, you don't need to have your nose in the book during the Gloria--you have it memorized after a few times.Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288875157147852833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-54895350896690269242011-12-14T23:09:45.696-06:002011-12-14T23:09:45.696-06:00In regards to the big picture, weren't the rig...In regards to the big picture, weren't the rights of "competent territorial ecclesiastical authority' denied when ICEL was disbanded and work on the new translations was handed over to Vox Clara? Which was outside the jurisdiction or the local authority.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09589000936258207632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-12302204656038743632011-12-14T21:32:11.274-06:002011-12-14T21:32:11.274-06:00Ha! UdoCanis, you can't puff me up like that,...Ha! <b>UdoCanis</b>, you can't puff me up like that, or God will send <b>Tito Edwards</b> to humble me. <br /><br />And no, Tito, I can't claim any special Jewish custom here. Just my general inability to count. Here's what happened: I remembered that since Christmas is on a Sunday this year, we've got the longest possible Advent, since it effectively makes the season five Sundays long. Mentally, I remembered this as 35 days, instead of 29 (four weeks plus one day, rather than four weeks plus one week). <br /><br />The halfway point for my mythological hirty-five day Advent would be two-and-a-half weeks before Christmas. Nevermind the fact that we're only one-and-a-half weeks out. That was actually a second entire math error. I don't think NASA's going to be hiring me anytime soon. <br /><br />Finally, <b>Daniel</b>, I'm not sure if it's Textus Receptus v. Alexandrian or not (it may well be), but I do know that there are differences in how different Bible translations render Luke 2:14. So for both #3, and the "sin / sins" for #7, I think it could go either way.<br /><br />Having said that, the Latin is quite clear: "<i>et in terra pax homínibus bonae voluntátis</i>." So I think it makes sense to translate it the way that they did. If you've got to make a choice with an ambiguous translation, at least side with Rome.<br /><br />I.X.,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-89094951246667527172011-12-14T21:31:38.287-06:002011-12-14T21:31:38.287-06:00UdoCanis: Here's my take on Joe - He doesn...UdoCanis: Here's my take on Joe - He doesn't watch TV as far as I can tell. He loves what he writes about (obviously). He has mad critical thinking skills and appreciates organization and clarity. He really cares about his readers (as his patience and charity in the comments indicate). He also stays up too late and isn't married with kids.<br /><br />Joe honed his abilities doing competitive debate in high school and college (just like Archbishop Sheen). The quote about his LSAT preparation is actually from a message board about college debate that I didn't know still existed. <br /><br />I attended high school and college with Joe so I've been observing him for years (I was a senior when he was a freshmen). He still beguiles me. The more I see though, the more I like. We could do for some more "odd cases" like Joe.Fr. Andrew Stroblhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01988252430554120835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-67329062162185199912011-12-14T20:57:29.908-06:002011-12-14T20:57:29.908-06:00I could be wrong here, but we are at the 3/4 point...I could be wrong here, but we are at the 3/4 point of Advent aren't we? We just had Gaudete Sunday because I see that I've lighted three of my four candles on my Advent wreath.<br /><br />If I'm missing something, please explain. Could it be an ancient Jewish custom of counting the days that I am missing?Tito Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12218771096085701665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-40862493558851533232011-12-14T19:01:34.930-06:002011-12-14T19:01:34.930-06:00I could be wrong, but re: point 3 with the gloria,...I could be wrong, but re: point 3 with the gloria, doesn't the old translation follow a Textus Receptus reading, over an Alexandrian text?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-7920480642516029762011-12-14T18:08:37.015-06:002011-12-14T18:08:37.015-06:00haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! that is the funniest comment to...haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! that is the funniest comment to this blog that i've seen yet! love it...<br /><br />In Christ<br />caryscredsoxfan2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10162308671130564720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-10135149447654169822011-12-14T17:04:47.092-06:002011-12-14T17:04:47.092-06:00Have you explained your method to aspiring blogger...Have you explained your method to aspiring bloggers? How do you manage to post so much quality content? Its an impressive showing, particularly for someone who has a day job. Do you set aside a certain amount of time every day or do you just squeeze it into whatever free moment? <br /><br />I have a feeling you are going to be unable to help normal human bloggers b/c of the disparity between your skill and theirs (could St. Thomas tell people how to write Summas?). Especially given these kind of comments on the web:<br /><br />"Joe Heschmeyer pretty much just played Sudoku before the LSAT and got a 177. But he's an odd case" http://www.net-benefits.net/showthread.php?t=11966UdoCanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682264442545051800noreply@blogger.com