tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post4170299949589283448..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: “Why Did Jesus Build His Own Church?” and Other Reflections on Matthew 16Joe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-67497702700891353602011-08-24T17:58:04.234-05:002011-08-24T17:58:04.234-05:00Peter's confession of faith (Christ Jesus) is ...Peter's confession of faith (Christ Jesus) is the Rock.<br /><br />This way the gospel is the "power of God..." (Romans 1:16)...and not any particular church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-79440345046000290822011-08-24T14:36:54.369-05:002011-08-24T14:36:54.369-05:00"You plce a lot of stock upon a sinful person..."You plce a lot of stock upon a sinful person. Great as he was."<br /><br />Old Adam, do you hold the same opinion to yourself concerning your personal belief against the notion of "Peter as rock" despite all the evidence against your belief presented to you on this website and of which you have as yet been unable to refute? Do you believe true Christianity and the Faith it taught no longer exists error free due to not being protected by Christ (because it was left fully to sinful humans and to ultimately fail)? <br /><br />Either the Truth (aka the Word aka the Christ aka the Gospel) is solid and has been with us from the beginning and therefore protected by Christ (His Universal (Catholic) Church aka the fullness of Christianity), or there is no faith that we can rely on due to us sinful humans. We can continue protesting under our personal relativism through a faith founded not on Christ but a bias based on our sinfulness and personal wishes in conforming Christ to ourselves, or we can conform ourselves to Christ with complete trust that He knew and knows today what He is doing. <br /><br />From the way I have understood your comments, you are preaching that Truth is unknowable today as it is tainted by human sin. Your belief that we can only be saved through Christ, which we believe also, can be taken from a reading of your words as unknowable to be the truth as it a belief that has existed in the domain of human taint. Even the Holy Scriptures themselves is unreliable in your view. In other words one is incapable of putting their faith in Jesus Christ due to what they have taken to believe about Him is itself tainted by human sin personally and from generations past and therefore that faith in 'Christ' is inevitably a faith in what is not Christ. <br /><br />Or we can simply choose to trust the work of Christ and where that ultimately leads, the Catholic (Universal) Christian Church with Christ the King of Kings ruling over it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-15510642022949736442011-08-24T14:06:30.288-05:002011-08-24T14:06:30.288-05:00WRA
"How's this? "Upon this rock, I...WRA<br /><br />"How's this? "Upon this rock, I will build my body of believers, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against my body of believers."<br /><br />True if you mean a collective body, but even a physical body is made up of a head, arms, legs, hands, feet all connected to the body, all one. You cannot have a body with a arm, leg, hand, or foot that is disconnected from it. That part will no longer belong to the body, just as Christians are disconnected from each other. Jesus prayed that we may all be one as He is One with the Father!Acontrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16054717780596471998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-4818721453777715552011-08-24T09:03:38.316-05:002011-08-24T09:03:38.316-05:00Old Adam,
We trust sinful Peter because we trust ...Old Adam,<br /><br />We trust sinful Peter <i>because we trust Christ</i>. Christ says (1) that Peter's able to answer not because of his own merits, but because of Jesus' Father in Heaven, and (2)that He's going to build His Church upon Peter.<br /><br />Jesus chose Twelve Apostles and sets them as a Foundation of His Church, with Himself as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20). You can't say that you're going to reject the Foundation, because it's twelve sinful men, so you can better focus on the Chief Cornerstone. Jesus and the Apostles are a package deal. <br /><br />This is particularly true of Peter, the only Disciple Who Jesus refers to with Himself as "We" (Mt. 17:27). It's nothing to be proud of that you drive a wedge between Christ and Peter.<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />Joe<br /><br />P.S. As for your last claim, it's debunked by the fact that Simon, the man, is renamed "Peter," Rock., and that he maintains this name in his good times and bad.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-66155221115401216642011-08-24T04:38:36.002-05:002011-08-24T04:38:36.002-05:00You plce a lot of stock upon a sinful person. Grea...You plce a lot of stock upon a sinful person. Great as he was.<br /><br />We place a lot of stock in the One to whom he was confessing. Christ.<br /><br />That is the Rock.<br /><br />Peter's confession of faith is the Rock. Not Peter the man.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-77798986247807262302011-08-24T00:44:06.249-05:002011-08-24T00:44:06.249-05:00Yeah, the issue of Church discipline and expelling...Yeah, the issue of Church discipline and expelling members (which is clearly found in the Bible) gets rather troublesome the more invisible you decide to make the Church.Restless Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401126921440086739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-26948248846751812652011-08-23T21:35:52.403-05:002011-08-23T21:35:52.403-05:00Old Adam,
I don't understand how your first a...Old Adam,<br /><br />I don't understand how your first and second statement go together. Could you spell it out for me? And I agree on your third, by the way. <br /><br />WRA,<br /><br />I've encountered <a href="http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2010/09/distinction-with-difference.html" rel="nofollow">this argument before</a>. It really depends on what you mean by “Body.” Body can mean an organized structure (like a human body), in which case I think that interpretation is right on. Certainly, it's how Paul envisions the Church in 1 Corinthians. <br /><br />But many Protestants use the term “Body,” but mean nothing more than “the sum total of Christians.” That's how Old Adam appears to be using the term “Church” in the first sentence of his comment (although I'll wait to see if that's right). I'd say that this latter use of “Body of believers” (or “Church”) doesn't match up with 1 Corinthians, and doesn't make a lot of sense -- at least, not to me. What would it mean in the context of Matthew 16? Upon this Rock, I will build the sum total of Christians? What?<br /><br />Both here and in Matthew 18:17, Jesus seems to have in mind a visible Church (that's particularly obvious in Matthew 18, where they expel those who won't turn away from sin), and a structured Church (Something that requires <i>building</i>).<br /><br />Now, having said that, it's possible to be invisibly connected to the visible Institution. An American travelling abroad, for example, is still an American via some invisible connection to his homeland. This is all the more true for his spiritual homeland. So all the saved are connected to, and saved through, the Church. But the Church isn't simply the sum of the saved, or She wouldn't contain wheat <i>and weeds</i>.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-62625899770621948072011-08-23T21:27:28.487-05:002011-08-23T21:27:28.487-05:00"Wherever there are those who believe in Chri..."Wherever there are those who believe in Christ Jesus, there is the Church"<br /><br />How would you apply this statement to the Gnostics, Mormons etc?Restless Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401126921440086739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-75478507872788874832011-08-23T21:24:05.317-05:002011-08-23T21:24:05.317-05:00I like (c) :)I like (c) :)Restless Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401126921440086739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-45501514299148070792011-08-23T19:18:22.029-05:002011-08-23T19:18:22.029-05:00How's this? "Upon this rock, I will build...How's this? "Upon this rock, I will build my body of believers, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against my body of believers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-37223108806400094292011-08-23T19:16:39.537-05:002011-08-23T19:16:39.537-05:00Wherever there are those who believe in Christ Jes...Wherever there are those who believe in Christ Jesus, there is the Church.<br /><br />There are believers and non-beli8evers in every church.<br /><br />Only Christ knows for sure who belongs to Him and who does not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-56563136062142305882011-08-23T17:34:55.495-05:002011-08-23T17:34:55.495-05:00Restless Pilgrim,
Regarding your first point, we ...Restless Pilgrim,<br /><br />Regarding your first point, we agree. We can say where the Church is, but we can't really say where the Church isn't.<br /><br />Regarding your second point, I'm torn. In saying He'll build the Church Himself, Jesus seems to be positioning Himself as (a) the New Solomon, (b) the LORD, or (c) both. I'm leaning towards (c), but I hadn't considered that angle before. Good comments!<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-49942979599013299822011-08-23T17:27:58.019-05:002011-08-23T17:27:58.019-05:00An interesting thought just struck me. By saying t...An interesting thought just struck me. By saying that *He* will build the Church, Christ is setting Himself up as the New Solomon. Psalm 127 is a Psalm of Solomon and it reads:<br /><br />"Unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain"Restless Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401126921440086739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-61688764550500421432011-08-23T17:22:36.736-05:002011-08-23T17:22:36.736-05:00...but not to say that the Lord doesn't work i......but not to say that the Lord doesn't work in and through those communities separated from communion with Rome...Restless Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401126921440086739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-12097544536649353632011-08-23T14:22:52.991-05:002011-08-23T14:22:52.991-05:00WRA,
Sort of. I'm not suggesting that the Cat...WRA,<br /><br />Sort of. I'm not suggesting that the Catholic Church is the true Church merely because She claims to be. I'm saying that if Jesus built a True Church, then we should be looking for a Church which claims to be... as a bare minimum.<br /><br />We know that the Lord built a Church. No Protestant denomination that I know of claims to be the Church built by Christ. <br /><br />We also know who founded each Protestant denomination, and none of those founders have names ending in "of Nazareth." So even if they claimed to be that Church, they aren't.<br /><br />The Catholic Church claims to be built by Jesus, and has no known mortal founder. So She's at least worth serious consideration as a contender. What say you? <br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-43299019716463243852011-08-23T14:06:53.419-05:002011-08-23T14:06:53.419-05:00-So if it's not a catholic church, the Lord di...-So if it's not a catholic church, the Lord did not build it.<br />-if it's not the catholic church, it is a false church.<br />-Only the papcy is divinely protected by the Holy Spirit. My pastor and the board are not.<br /><br />Do I get you so far?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com