tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post4841164054517976684..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: Answering Orthodox Objections About the Robber CouncilJoe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-82214180548001151432014-07-21T06:44:30.011-05:002014-07-21T06:44:30.011-05:00How are Ecumenical Councils in contrast to Catholi...How are Ecumenical Councils in contrast to Catholic ecclesiology? we call them more frequently than your eastern schismatic Churches. HHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09424777565663605725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-39865008860832093792014-06-20T11:39:15.753-05:002014-06-20T11:39:15.753-05:00I don't have the ability to go into a detailed...I don't have the ability to go into a detailed argument, but you are flat wrong here :<br /><br />"Neither at Nicaea nor at Ephesos were bishops beaten."<br /><br />Not only are you wrong, but a very prominent Saint is the one who laid the beatdown at Nicaea - St Nicholas.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10758898246954071925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-12950518976031176912011-07-18T20:20:13.693-05:002011-07-18T20:20:13.693-05:00I don't know what the Ravenna document does or...I don't know what the Ravenna document does or does not say. The successes and failures of ecumenical gatherings to express Orthodox teaching, though, is not something I'm going to enter into here. I am not sure how the expectation that we accept the current pope as "valid" makes sense. The underlying ecclesiological presuppositions are not clear. <br /><br />Regardless, I thank all of you for your forbearance. As profitable as I hope all this has been, I have already spent far too much time here. I wish you all the best.<br /><br />Asking your forgiveness,<br />TikhonFelixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-64532345224973127932011-07-18T17:48:23.792-05:002011-07-18T17:48:23.792-05:00I didn't see anything in Ravenna about being o...I didn't see anything in Ravenna about being outside the Church?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-44228572136015070482011-07-18T11:09:12.577-05:002011-07-18T11:09:12.577-05:00Are you asking why we don't recognize the cano...Are you asking why we don't recognize the canonical authority of someone we consider outside the Church?Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-89884668334674610442011-07-18T10:24:03.613-05:002011-07-18T10:24:03.613-05:00Why is B16 not valid? I don't understand.Why is B16 not valid? I don't understand.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-51392861877241928452011-07-17T23:35:17.800-05:002011-07-17T23:35:17.800-05:00Joe,
No, that I uphold the idea that contraceptio...Joe,<br /><br />No, that I uphold the idea that contraception could be "OK" in one place and not another is the wrong conclusion to draw from my response to Daniel's "contraception proof" against the legitimacy of the Orthodox Church. I answered the question, "How do you know that a particular thing is sinful"--generally. This tells you that a classification of contraceptive use as an inherent evil which should be legislated against is not something I take for granted. I liken it to the question, "Are tanktops sinful?" We then moved on to the question of epistemic guarantees, which has been the basic topic here all along under various guises.<br /><br />As to your point about the pope's local authority, I'm a little surprised by the question, because I don't fault Catholics for being morally guided by their own pastors. I'm not sure why you got the impression that I do.<br /><br />For once we are not at odds. Let me take this opening, then, to clarify a few things. 1) Timothy Ware is the secular name of now Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. He had authored some books under that name before his ordination. 2) Although they amount to little in this discussion, one should not take similarities between our two churches for granted. I don't know if this is caused by the presence of Eastern Catholicism or what. One example is the mention of "valid orders." We do not consider a deposed or excommunicated clergyman to be in orders any longer. Apostolic succession and priesthood are the possession of the Church; one who has been cast out of her fold cannot have either. That would also exclude the possibility of calling the pope the "valid" Patriarch of the West. I don't know the provenance of that title anyway. Interestingly, Benedict struck it from among the official titles of his office a few years ago.Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-6838322053387469782011-07-17T20:12:28.071-05:002011-07-17T20:12:28.071-05:00Daniel,
I felt compelled, rightly or wrongly, to...Daniel, <br /><br />I felt compelled, rightly or wrongly, to offer clarification on why Second Ephesus does not pose a problem. Though the underlying point may be a perennial feature of Catholic apologetics, the specifics of the case are not well known. Your latest points, though, have been addressed many times by more capable minds and tongues, and a search for responses will yield copious results. I hope I don't need to justify my own reticence to spend day after day on this blog.<br /><br />Nick,<br /><br />First, subjectivity: I've stated that the facts of Second Ephesus come from the Acts of Chalcedon.<br /><br />Second, consistency (of Chalcedon's testimony): dissenting bishops, most famously Theodoret and Ibas, were indeed forbidden from attending. I checked my language above, and I never said "all dissenting bishops."<br /><br />Third: You have to believe that the Holy Spirit produces unanimity among the bishops in matters of faith. If you don't accept that, your only solution is a papacy; I understand that. Yet this unanimity is not numerical. Individuals can choose to reject the grace and charism of the Holy Spirit, as in all areas of Christian life. But the Church remains in the truth. This is why the Oecumenical Synods have historically voted and not simply asked the bishop of Rome. <br />What good is a vote if the episcopate is inherently chaotic and antithetical to the epistemic security you so long for? I know that you cannot escape this historical fact of synodal voting, and you are forced to allow that, at least at moments, infalliblity is exercised outside of the papacy, if still with him and through him. We believe in this same phenomenon but deny that its source is in the papacy. It is what we mean by the infallibility of the Church, as promised by the Lord.Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-87827717350545408072011-07-17T13:23:24.066-05:002011-07-17T13:23:24.066-05:00Tikhon,
You're latest response to me said:
&...Tikhon, <br /><br />You're latest response to me said:<br />"A real bishop has apostolic succession [1A] and is in communion with the other bishops.[1B] A synod of bishops is a big meeting of these men.[2] If they do not violate canonical order and discipline (as at Ephesus II, where the signatories were forced to sign blank documents, an abbot was allowed to vote, dissenting bishops were kept away, and other rules of church order were broken), then one can trust that the Holy Spirit speaks through them.[3] There is nothing circular about this,[4] though an ignorance of the facts of the Synods might indeed lead one into a nebulous state over which is valid and which not."<br /><br />My response:<br />[1A] I don't think Apostolic Succession was ever a problem in these situations, since all bishops (even those excommunicated and in heresy) had Valid Orders. <br /><br />[1B] To be in communion with "the other bishops" is a bit nebulous, since in these dubious Councils the attending bishops considered themselves in communion with each other, and they obviously werent in communion with those whom they excommunicated. Plus, it's not always possible to be in communion with every other bishop, since there are quite often schisms/heresies and bad blood that prevent such. For example, Mt Athos was not in communion with Constantinople from 1960 to 1970, but we wouldn't say neither side had real bishops.<br /><br />[2] This condition is likewise nebulous: is a Synod a mere "big meeting" of bishops? What is the minimum number of attendees? The dubious councils could meet such conditions.<br /><br />[3] I'm sure dubious Councils have not violated those conditions, and I'm not even sold on the idea Ephesus 2 did so either. I don't know where you're getting your information, but it doesn't seem credible nor consistent. For example, I doubt bishops were forced to sign blank documents, nor would such be necessary if as you indicate the dissenting bishops were already excluded. Such things seem too Ad Hoc, and likewise not verifiable for the average Christian living in times of great upheaval. <br /><br />[4] There is nothing circular about #3, but there is a lot of subjectivity to it. It's not even clear what authority you're deriving these conditions from. I would say #1B and #2 do fall within the realm of circularity though.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-24615671944441012562011-07-17T09:11:52.223-05:002011-07-17T09:11:52.223-05:00And Tikhon,
I hate to overwhelm you, but I'l...And Tikhon, <br /><br />I hate to overwhelm you, but I'll be off the computer for a while I think so here goes:<br /><br />Earlier you stated that nonsense could be eliminated from the councils themselves.<br /><br />I draw your attention to Canon 34 of the Canons of the Holy Apostles:<br /><br />"The bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them and account him as their head, and do nothing of consequence without his consent;"<br /><br />I draw your attention to Canon 3 of I Constantinople:<br /><br />"The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome;"<br /><br />THEREFORE, any action taken by Constantinople without the consent of the Bishop of Rome is contrary to the authority of God as articulated infallibly by a valid Council assembled.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-23794597117531422172011-07-17T08:44:03.179-05:002011-07-17T08:44:03.179-05:00@Joe
Mea culpa. I blame St. Thomas More, the pat...@Joe<br /><br />Mea culpa. I blame St. Thomas More, the patron saint of invective.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-80127415842608663492011-07-17T08:42:30.293-05:002011-07-17T08:42:30.293-05:00Tikhon,
How am I to know what the Scriptures are...Tikhon,<br /><br /><br />How am I to know what the Scriptures are per the Orthodox Church?<br /><br />The Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 says:<br /><br />"Following the rule of the Catholic Church, we call Sacred Scripture all those which Cyril [Lucaris] collected from the Synod of Laodicea, and enumerated, adding to Scripture those which he foolishly and ignorantly, or rather maliciously, called Apocrypha; specifically, “The Wisdom of Solomon,” “Judith,” “Tobit,” “The History of the Dragon” [Bel and the Dragon], “The History of Susanna,” “The Maccabees,” and “The Wisdom of Sirach.” For we judge these also to be with the other genuine Books of Divine Scripture genuine parts of Scripture. For ancient custom, or rather the Catholic Church, which has delivered to us as genuine the Sacred Gospels and the other Books of Scripture, has undoubtedly delivered these also as parts of Scripture, and the denial of these is the rejection of those. And if, perhaps, it seems that not always have all of these been considered on the same level as the others, yet nevertheless these also have been counted and reckoned with the rest of Scripture, both by Synods and by many of the most ancient and eminent Theologians of the Catholic Church. All of these we also judge to be Canonical Books, and confess them to be Sacred Scripture."<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />But the Catechism of Philaret says:<br /><br />"31. How many are the books of the Old Testament?<br /><br />St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Athanasius the Great, and St. John Damascene reckon them at twenty-two, agreeing therein with the Jews, who so reckon them in the original Hebrew tongue. (Athanas. Ep. xxxix. De Test.; J. Damasc. Theol. lib. iv. c. 17.)<br /><br />32. Why should we attend to the reckoning of the Hebrews?<br /><br />Because, as the Apostle Paul says, unto them were committed the oracles of God; and the sacred books of the Old Testament have been received from the Hebrew Church of that Testament by the Christian Church of the New."Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-44168750424803082382011-07-16T23:00:54.957-05:002011-07-16T23:00:54.957-05:00Daniel and Tikhon,
I've really appreciated bo...Daniel and Tikhon,<br /><br />I've really appreciated both of your contributions so far. I was been busy all day, but have been periodically reading them on my phone. The one desire I have is that both of you approach the topic with a bit more charity, particularly as we're brothers in Christ, sons of the same Father. Compared with the secular world, or rival religions, or even Protestant Christianity, the very <i>nearness</i> between us makes hostility all the more self-destructive. <br /><br /><br />Perhaps, Tikhon, you view this simply as more of our "persistent fawning" for the East, but I view it as a desire to see the Church Christ founded brought into a full and loving unity. If that's fawning, so be it; "while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him" (Luke 15:20).<br /><br />Tikhon, if it is possible for contraception to be okay in Miami, but not New York (as I understood you to be saying; correct me if I'm wrong), why couldn't the same argument be used in favor of Catholicism? After all, do you not recognize the Pope as the valid Patriarch of the West? So even if, from an Eastern Orthodox viewpoint, the papacy claims too much, how can you fault Western Catholics for listening to their spiritual directors, obeying their Fathers, and following their Patriarch?<br /><br />Maybe it's a stupid question, but it's one which occurred to me based upon how you described how the Orthodox come to know Truth, and how to act.<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />Joe.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-71511268280358160702011-07-16T20:13:20.186-05:002011-07-16T20:13:20.186-05:00[[So either the system of determining truth is def...[[So either the system of determining truth is defective or you'll be crossing the Tiber at any moment.]]<br /><br />Simply because you claim to have all that we have? I don't see how that follows. I believe that you believe your system is defective without the pope, but you have yet to show how ours is.<br /><br />I welcome your last comment. I think a reading of the Synodal Acts of all the councils is just the cure for all this nonsense.Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-74794972518345033982011-07-16T19:33:49.420-05:002011-07-16T19:33:49.420-05:00Has anyone mentioned the irony that it was at Chal...Has anyone mentioned the irony that it was at Chalcedon--so beloved by the East--where one of the charges against Dioscorus was that he took over as head of the robber council without THE POPE'S CONSENT?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-70263409248649190152011-07-16T19:10:40.354-05:002011-07-16T19:10:40.354-05:00This is my point:
"I am guided by my spiritu...This is my point:<br /><br />"I am guided by my spiritual father as well as my conscience."<br /><br />I am guided by Fr Tim Drake, and conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ, I believe. <br /><br />"Both have been instructed, hopefully, in apostolic, patristic spiritual laws."<br /><br />My priest went to seminary; I study catechism.<br /><br />"He, in turn, will have a knowledge of the canons and disciplinary manuals of the holy Fathers and Synods."<br /><br />That's done in seminary...<br /><br />"Further, we are helped along by the episcopal, synodal guidance of our church."<br /><br />My priest is aided by Bishop Dilorenzo, and others. The USCCB etc. provide guidance.<br /><br />..................<br /><br />And yet I'm Catholic not Orthodox.<br /><br />So either the system of determining truth is defective or you'll be crossing the Tiber at any moment.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-64540296929107643952011-07-16T17:11:31.641-05:002011-07-16T17:11:31.641-05:00Daniel, this is going round and round. Make your p...Daniel, this is going round and round. Make your point. I've already tried to address your presuppositions and logic. Go ahead and give your full line of reasoning.Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-32398988429386515802011-07-16T17:02:28.243-05:002011-07-16T17:02:28.243-05:00Would it be ok if a bishop approved of condoms in ...Would it be ok if a bishop approved of condoms in Miami, but another bishop opposed them in New York?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-59989888952090117702011-07-16T16:13:44.115-05:002011-07-16T16:13:44.115-05:00Remember, also, Daniel, that the history of the Ch...Remember, also, Daniel, that the history of the Church is not on the side of easy answers to difficult choices.Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-64696036722567890542011-07-16T16:07:34.843-05:002011-07-16T16:07:34.843-05:00Nick,
A real bishop has apostolic succession and...Nick, <br /><br />A real bishop has apostolic succession and is in communion with the other bishops. A synod of bishops is a big meeting of these men. If they do not violate canonical order and discipline (as at Ephesus II, where the signatories were forced to sign blank documents, an abbot was allowed to vote, dissenting bishops were kept away, and other rules of church order were broken), then one can trust that the Holy Spirit speaks through them. There is nothing circular about this, though an ignorance of the facts of the Synods might indeed lead one into a nebulous state over which is valid and which not.<br /><br /><br />Daniel, <br /><br />Although my last post was meant as a joke, since you hadn't specified that the condoms would be used as contraception, I'll answer you. I know whether or not I am sinning because I am guided by my spiritual father as well as my conscience. Both have been instructed, hopefully, in apostolic, patristic spiritual laws. He, in turn, will have a knowledge of the canons and disciplinary manuals of the holy Fathers and Synods. Further, we are helped along by the episcopal, synodal guidance of our church. At each stage from the top down the process becomes more and more personalized, so that from general principles we arrive at specific guidelines of behavior. Decisions and choices are made not on juridical lines, but on spiritual. What is befitting an Orthodox Christian life? What is consonant with apostolic spiritual life unto salvation? But we are not lacking clear moral guidance, as you suppose. All of the local synods have spoken on contraception, each orienting their guidance to the particular needs of their flock. You may not be happy with the consequences, but your ultimate conclusion does not stand.Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-36430358340303163912011-07-16T15:10:00.281-05:002011-07-16T15:10:00.281-05:00Tikhon,
You said: "A synod of bishops is alw...Tikhon,<br /><br />You said: "A synod of bishops is always a legitimate synod of bishops, and speaks for the Church, as long as it is composed of real bishops and behaves accordingly. In this way, the Lord ensures that they will confirm the truth."<br /><br />This definition seems circular/nebulous, and that's precisely the problem Joe has tried to point out.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-14252141637401517192011-07-16T14:52:22.315-05:002011-07-16T14:52:22.315-05:00And how do we know?And how do we know?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-29622172871598141512011-07-16T14:48:56.811-05:002011-07-16T14:48:56.811-05:00It depends what you use them for.It depends what you use them for.Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-67482352125786833242011-07-16T14:31:53.754-05:002011-07-16T14:31:53.754-05:00Is using condoms a sin? How do we know?Is using condoms a sin? How do we know?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-39882844533622179572011-07-16T13:37:30.762-05:002011-07-16T13:37:30.762-05:00In the above comment, substitute the following que...In the above comment, substitute the following questions from Daniel for the brackets:<br /><br />Does the Eastern Church teach that any truth is infallible?<br /><br />Is scripture true? Are the canons of the Holy 7 true?<br /><br />How do we know this?Felixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11851182422240309808noreply@blogger.com