tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post5157810487598558152..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: Hearts of Flesh: Leah Libresco on Her Conversion from Atheism to CatholicismJoe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-89052984747793848572013-08-24T14:00:15.373-05:002013-08-24T14:00:15.373-05:00Her conversion doesn't impress me. One her rea...Her conversion doesn't impress me. One her reasons of converting are fairly weak. Two, she wasn't that big, maybe she had bad reasons she was an atheist, but I'm not going to do a cop-out and say "she wasn't a true atheist" she probablyAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00892849848909340909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-45831784374501798892012-07-05T15:43:51.989-05:002012-07-05T15:43:51.989-05:00Joe,
Could you provide a link to this? I've b...Joe,<br /><br />Could you provide a link to this? I've been having the same problem as Leah-- I understand the natural law reasons against homosexual acts, but I'm not sure why this must extend to civil marriages. Even if it's not a problem of doctrine, I'd still like to understand the Vatican's reasons for this.<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />SMDStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17447821265546763888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-69894522752807748672012-07-04T09:49:11.192-05:002012-07-04T09:49:11.192-05:00Latenter, I think I share your concern about the d...Latenter, I think I share your concern about the dangers faced, probably unknowningly, by Catholics more inclined to follow "secular trends" than "the truth". And, to me anyway, the most dangerous secular trend of all is the general acceptance that one's individual conscience is always right, is always to be followed, is the expression of one's own fundamental moral principles, and is subject to no outside authority or review. This is a relatively modern understanding of conscience and a very harmful one, especially to people of faith and most especially to Catholics. That is why I recommended John Henry Newman's essay on conscience. <br /><br />Incidentally, Father Knox's "The Belief of Catholics" is very special to me. I became a Christian in 2004 and a Catholic in 2009 and Knox's explanations played an important role in my conversion.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139045610342489362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-995473619625908032012-07-03T16:20:33.286-05:002012-07-03T16:20:33.286-05:00Fr Andrew
If you hear what I'm saying, as wel...Fr Andrew<br /><br />If you hear what I'm saying, as well as what I've said in the past, I can't understand why you 'really don't know where I am coming from'. Other people have understood and we are all wiser so, to borrow some American usage 'Go figure'.<br /><br />We all share the faith passed on by the apostles but it's unusual to find it presented as news.<br /><br />Pax<br /><br />KimKimHattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684437340870929578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-52837303635101025352012-07-03T14:27:16.847-05:002012-07-03T14:27:16.847-05:00Kim,
I hear what you're saying, but I really ...Kim,<br /><br />I hear what you're saying, but I really have no idea where you're coming from. I can understand someone saying, "I don't like this song. Why are you playing it?" But I don't understand saying, "I've heard this song before. Why are you playing it?"<br /><br />The reason I still read what Joe writes is because I enjoy his zeal for the luster he still obviously appreciates on the Pearl of Great Price. I'm glad he doesn't aim for novelty when it comes to sharing the riches in the Deposit of Faith. We deal in Mysteries of Faith. We don't try to figure them out and then move on. We marvel at an unfathomable depth.<br /><br />If the scent of Joe's bouqet is familiar, thanks be to God! It means we share the Faith passed on from the Apostles.<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />Fr. AndrewFr. Andrew Stroblhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01988252430554120835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-75084168335136976992012-07-03T14:07:07.567-05:002012-07-03T14:07:07.567-05:00The idea that it is a criticism to write for peopl...The idea that it is a criticism to write for people who know less about your subject than you do, even though there are those who know more, is so confusing to me.<br /><br />Sheed notes in Theology and Sanity that "I played with the thought of dedicating this book To ALL WHO KNOW LESS THEOLOGY THAN I. It would have sounded flippant. But It would have been exact. There are thousands who know more theology than I, and for them I have no message: they must teach me. But there are thousands who know less, and less is not enough: I must try to teach them."<br /><br />This seems to be about what is going on here. Perhaps you're in the camp that knows more than the authors of this blog. If so, the solution is to create your own. But it does not render this blog useless just because people like you exist. There are thousands that know less about this subject than the authors of this blog, a fact which is confirmed by its thousands of weekly viewers.Latenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028986769458356612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-77011668013247012272012-07-03T14:02:38.819-05:002012-07-03T14:02:38.819-05:00Kim,
If I'm presenting anything new, then it&...Kim,<br /><br />If I'm presenting anything new, then it's (and I'm) almost certainly wrong. God bless,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-1170161702556773702012-07-03T14:00:22.254-05:002012-07-03T14:00:22.254-05:00Hello Joe
Well it's not quite Independence da...Hello Joe<br /><br />Well it's not quite Independence day here but Happy Independence Day all the same. Yes I know St Francis De Sales book well - after all he IS the patron of journalists.<br /><br />Your quotation from him tells me where you are 'coming from' but, admitting that these are 'old flowers' makes me less surprised that, despite their 'rearrangement' in a new 'bouquet' the scent is very familiar.KimHattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684437340870929578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-33546343164742433872012-07-03T13:55:43.572-05:002012-07-03T13:55:43.572-05:00Kim, I am a convert from Lutheranism, who went str...Kim, I am a convert from Lutheranism, who went straight from High Church Lutheranism to High Church Catholicism via the FSSP. I was trained one-on-one with an FSSP priest, used the Baltimore Catechism, etc. That said, there is no way to know so many things in a year's time (in my case, or the case of most who go through RCIA). Sure, I knew a lot from Protestantism, but obviously I was incorrect on so much. I am a voracious reader, but blogs like this have been instrumental in not only teaching me new insights, but also giving reinforcements and reminders of knowledge. Most importantly, the posts are extremely charitable. So for my case, this blog is one of my most frequently checked. <br /><br />It's funny, I was reading the Didache last night, and one of the teachings is that, "For some you shall reprove, others you will pray for, and others you will love more than your soul." I am in the habit of reproving everybody with a smack over the head. Blogs like this help me reprove and teach from a more charitable angle, and that's a start.<br /><br />Pax tecum.Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13288875157147852833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-2950815258496727682012-07-03T13:31:12.868-05:002012-07-03T13:31:12.868-05:00Kim,
To get a feel for where the blog is coming f...Kim,<br /><br />To get a feel for where the blog is coming from, check out the Scriptural citation at the top. As for the rest, St. Francis de Sales explains it this way in his preface to <i>The Introduction to the Devout Life</i>, <br /><br />“The flower-girl Glycera was so skilled in varying the arrangement and combination of her flowers, that out of the same kinds she produced a great variety of bouquets; so that the painter Pausias, who sought to rival the diversity of her art, was brought to a standstill, for he could not vary his painting so endlessly as Glycera varied her bouquets. Even so the Holy Spirit of God disposes and arranges the devout teaching which He imparts through the lips and pen of His servants with such endless variety, that, although the doctrine is ever one and the same, their treatment of it is different, according to the varying minds whence that treatment flows. Assuredly I neither desire, nor ought to write in this book anything but what has been already said by others before me. I offer you the same flowers, dear reader, but the bouquet will be somewhat different from theirs, because it is differently made up.”<br /><br />Happy Independence Day,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-43362803600187778542012-07-03T13:24:11.901-05:002012-07-03T13:24:11.901-05:00I don't find them boring. Forgive me if I gave...I don't find them boring. Forgive me if I gave that impression. I DO sometimes find what is obviously a new discovery to the poster/blogger very much what I learnt over 40 years ago and most Catholics of my age, [with the exception of converts in the last three or four years which might be any age] long ago knew and accepted. I'm not so much bored as bewildered and disappointed. It's hard to know where this blog is 'coming from ..........'KimHattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684437340870929578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-61245327047663186532012-07-03T13:11:46.037-05:002012-07-03T13:11:46.037-05:00Its not. The contributors are both cradle Catholic...Its not. The contributors are both cradle Catholics. But I don't understand why you are lodging these "this is boring" kind of critiques. Isn't the normal response to that reaction just to read something else instead?Latenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028986769458356612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-53321437870686191672012-07-03T13:09:12.196-05:002012-07-03T13:09:12.196-05:00I wonder, from the posts and the comments if this ...I wonder, from the posts and the comments if this Blog is the brainchild of a Catholic who has converted from protestantism. So many posts that are taken or offered as new insights/discoveries are very old news for those of us who were cradle Catholics in the fifties or, dare I say it, converted more than ten or fifteen years ago ...?KimHattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684437340870929578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-4520214945261704242012-07-03T11:28:08.469-05:002012-07-03T11:28:08.469-05:00Well I'm not sure that quotations from the Gos...Well I'm not sure that quotations from the Gospels need to be approached in the same way as a Blog. I'll grant that there is a place for exaggeration and superlatives in many different types of English narrative but, perhaps, being of a different age and culture 'utterly unique' sounds so sensationalist that it undermines what you want to say. Still Pax. It's probably a generational and cultural difference we have between us.KimHattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684437340870929578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-9815747344521191362012-07-02T15:30:01.680-05:002012-07-02T15:30:01.680-05:00That last answer of Leah's is very powerful, a...That last answer of Leah's is very powerful, and convicting for people like me who tend to worry about heretics wanting to accomodate secular trends more than follow the truth. Something like this reminds me that a willingness to tackle the hard questions is one of the things that is so beautiful about Catholicism (particularly compared with the anti-intellectualism of much of American Protestantism). <br /><br />I'm reminded of something Ronald Knox said in his letters with Arnold Lunn when Lunn asked what Knox did with some of the moral blotches on Catholicism's record (e.g., not condemning slavery, the inquisition, etc.). Knox recalls that St. Thomas, when he was finished proving the existence of God, proceeded to detail objections to a belief in the existence of God without any attempt to refute them. He had already established that God existed. This did not mean that all objections were fully understood. But Thomas proposed that we grapple with them to better understand God better by understanding these objections. <br /><br />The same, I think, goes for moral objections. It does not follow from believing the Catholic faith, that we understand all of the faith. And admitting this, and grappling with the objections, is critical for gaining an adult understanding of the faith.Latenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028986769458356612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-61853684077997607002012-07-01T12:29:34.192-05:002012-07-01T12:29:34.192-05:00Open address to Leah: I’m not a regular reader on ...Open address to Leah: I’m not a regular reader on this website but want to address a comment you made in one of your answers so I signed up for this purpose only. You are quoted as saying: <br /><br />“Some claims aren’t really available for scrutiny (the Immaculate Conception comes to mind)”<br /><br />I just want to say I believe the Immaculate Conception is available for scrutiny. In other words I believe it can be proved to be true. This is my reasoning:<br /><br />Every mother experiences an innate impulse to defend and protect her child, particularly when the child is innocent and being falsely accused or punished or is suffering. It is instinctive for the mother to act in the child‘s defense. One can assume, if ever there is a moment in a mother’s life when she will be tempted to act against God’s will, it would be that moment when her child is in danger or suffering in this way. As His mother, according to Jewish custom and belief (honor thy Father and Mother), Christ subjected Himself in obedience to both His mother on earth and his Father in Heaven. Therefore, at the cross, Christ was subject to both His mother and His Father. If His mother had willed that He come down off of that cross, we would not have been able to be saved by His passion and death because Jesus would have been faced with the dilemma of disunity between His Mother and His Father's will for Him in that moment. God could not allow this disunity to occur so that His son would be faced with this sort of choice at the moment humanity was to be saved. It was in God's design then, that Mary will for Christ exactly what His father willed for Him. So, we can conclude that Mary had to have willed during every moment of Christ’s passion for her son to suffer and die this cruel death exactly as it happened. Since Christ knows the heart and mind of His mother, He would have known His mother willed something different for Him and He would have had to submit to her will. But how can that be possible? How is it that Mary’s will could contradict her natural born instinct as a mother to defend the innocence of her child? It is only possible, if the soul is in perfect union with God at all times, without any possible stain or weakness from original sin that would predispose her to challenge the Father‘s authority over Her son. It was because God created Her soul to be in a state of perfect union with His will at all times throughout Her life, and in doing so, Her soul is thus Immaculate at all times.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07624192142772768393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-89983507102307254502012-07-01T11:17:26.039-05:002012-07-01T11:17:26.039-05:00All,
I mentioned it in a P.S. above, but the comm...<b>All</b>,<br /><br />I mentioned it in a P.S. above, but the comments on <a href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unequallyyoked/2012/06/qa-with-shameless-popery-radio-roundup.html" rel="nofollow">Leah's post</a> about the interview are worth diving into. For example, Edward Feser jumps in to defend his style in <i>The Last Superstition</i>, after Leah cited it as an example of a book with “good data, but bad tone” above.<br /><br /><br /><b>Brandon</b>, <b>Scott</b> and <b>Christian State</b>,<br /><br />I enjoyed your counter-points on the specific arguments that Leah didn't find effective. I think that, between the three of you, the three major points that need to be mentioned should be:<br /><br />1) Sometimes, good arguments are dismissed because they're being presented (or understood) poorly;<br /><br />2) Certain arguments are of greater effectiveness and appeal for people of certain backgrounds. As Scott mentioned, those of us whose backgrounds are in history, the realization that the Catholic Church is the oldest institution on planet Earth (by far) was eye-opening for me. But for someone whose background (and passion) runs more towards the natural sciences or philosophy, different arguments are going to make a connection; and <br /><br />3) Sometimes, it just comes down to the individual. Aquinas and Anselm were both brilliant Catholics, steeped in philosophy. Yet Anselm loved the ontological argument for God, and Aquinas actually <i>rejected</i> it.<br /><br />I.X.,Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-704370712342872012-07-01T01:17:50.504-05:002012-07-01T01:17:50.504-05:00Tara,
Have you read the Vatican's own rationa...Tara,<br /><br />Have you read the Vatican's own rationale for its stance against same-sex civil unions? When I was struggling with this same issue as I began to take my faith more seriously, I personally found it helpful.<br /><br />The other thing that I found helpful was to seriously examine what "marriage" is, what that term means, etc., and to understand why even cultures who embraced homosexual relations (like the ancient Greeks) viewed marriage as intrinsically heterosexual.<br /><br />I.X.,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-35707665382351106272012-07-01T00:53:28.784-05:002012-07-01T00:53:28.784-05:00As for American English, I think we'll hold do...As for American English, I think we'll <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw" rel="nofollow">hold down the fort</a> just fine on our end. And in any case, exaggeration and superlatives aren't all bad, are they? Or do you have a problem with passages like Mark 9:43 and Matthew 11:11, too?Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-21190098567237280942012-06-30T16:06:52.418-05:002012-06-30T16:06:52.418-05:00I was also surprised at her dismissal of the argum...I was also surprised at her dismissal of the argument from the Church's endurance through the ages. For someone steeped in history and the history of ideas going back to the ancient world, this is certainly a decisive argument for Catholicism. But she has a science and analytic philosophy background as her reading list suggests.<br /><br />One other comment. My views have changed dramatically in my five years as a convert, and if she deepens her relationship with Christ and His Church them her views will as well. She and all converts need our prayers, for Satan is not just a liar and a murderer--he is also a thief who steals away the young and sick in faith.Scott Woltzehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13112547391607836919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-88113365630161015242012-06-30T12:26:54.896-05:002012-06-30T12:26:54.896-05:00Leah (that is my eldest daughter's name, btw),...Leah (that is my eldest daughter's name, btw),<br /><br />I highly recommend Edith Stein's (St. Theresa Benedicta of the Cross): <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Finite-Eternal-Being-Attempt-Collected/dp/0935216324" rel="nofollow">Finite and Eternal Being</a>. If you like St. Thomas argument for the cause of existence, then you will appreciate her take. She is very dense (warning). Very. Did I mention dense? : )<br /><br />Anyways, I will keep you and yours in my prayers.<br /><br />Peace in Christ,<br /><br />BrentBrent Stubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814899666244618561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-39325811514912673472012-06-30T12:17:23.053-05:002012-06-30T12:17:23.053-05:00Joe. I don't think I was being pedantic, just ...Joe. I don't think I was being pedantic, just English using English rather than American English which is prone to exaggeration and superlatives. Your analogy was a brave attempt to make sense of nonsensical usage but it failed. Unique still means 'one of a kind, unlike any other'. I've covered my other points above. Leah hasn't become a Catholic. She is attending RCIA classes. So it will be a while before she might enjoy the sacraments. Well, it would be here in England.KimHattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684437340870929578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-25723798424712716042012-06-30T11:19:01.096-05:002012-06-30T11:19:01.096-05:00I don't see Leah's leaning towards Catholi...I don't see Leah's leaning towards Catholicism as a 'liberal infiltration' I see it as very redolent of a half-hearted, half-understood, digestion of her new position. Maybe she should take a Sabbatical and read through the Catechism of The Catholic Church if she doesn't understand where the church is coming from regarding homosexuality and same-sex marriage. I fail to see how her shift towards Catholicism can be compared to the story of The Prodigal Son. He had a complete change of heart and was willing to become the least of his father's servants. Leah's conversion is being given celebrity status. Why?KimHattonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03684437340870929578noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-90332292303467385402012-06-30T08:31:06.653-05:002012-06-30T08:31:06.653-05:00Kim's response seems to me to be the very thin...Kim's response seems to me to be the very thing some bloggers were concerned about with Leah choosing to blog through her conversion rather than take a sabbatical...the cold comments from hyper orthodox Catholics seeing any struggle with church teachings as liberal infiltration into the pure church. Utterly lacking in grace or patience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-18444397752259141082012-06-30T02:29:59.041-05:002012-06-30T02:29:59.041-05:00An interesting post. Thank you for sharing. I'...An interesting post. Thank you for sharing. I'd like to recommend two short readings for Leah, on the chance she has not yet read them: Chesterton's "Saint Thomas Aquinas: The Dumb Ox" and John Henry Newman's essay on Conscience, available here: http://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section5.html<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />JohnAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139045610342489362noreply@blogger.com