tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post5183879253820538996..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: “Did God Die For You?” (St. Paul and Unconditional Election)Joe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-38939836381708629482012-02-01T05:29:43.994-06:002012-02-01T05:29:43.994-06:00You have distorted the Calvinist position on many ...You have distorted the Calvinist position on many points, some of which are as follows:<br /><br />1) You said in your paper: <i>"If He chose some and not others for coherent reasons known only to Himself, that would still be a condition (just one we don't know). Calvinists deny that He had any reason."</i> It is clear in this statement of yours that you don't really understand what UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION really means for Calvinists. When they say that God's election unto Salvation is "unconditinal", it simply means it is not based on human worth. It doesn't have any condition on MAN's PART only, but it doesn't mean that GOD doesn't have any reason/s hidden and reserved to Himself why He picked one over the other. <br /><br />2) You also said: <i>"Instead, He looks across all of Creation, and arbitrarily chooses some to go to Heaven, and some to go to Hell."</i> Of course this only your conclusion about what you believe to be the position held by Calvinists. As explained above, God has a reason for choosing people unto Salvation, therefore, it is not arbitrary. <br /><br />3) You misunderstood Calvinism when you commented that in the said system it seems that faith is rendered irrelevant to Salvation because predestination implies that we are saved by election, not by faith. The truth is that historical Calvinism doesn't teach that one is saved by election or that faith is just a product, and not a prerequisite, unto Salvation. Instead, it affirms that Justification is attained by an individual through faith alone. This is clearly set out in the First Head of Canons of Dort, especially in articles 2 an 4. But since no one is capable of savingly believing the Gospel because of man's deadness in Sin (Rom 3:9-12; 1 Cor. 2:14), faith then must be a divine gift, and Calvinists are convinced that this gift flows from God's gracious election. Thus, election is not Salvation per se, but a preparation towards it (Dort, I, A-6-8). <br /><br />4) Your comments on the Calvinist usage of Romans 9 is also misleading. It is true that in Romans 9 Paul was opposing those who hold that God's choice of people unto Salvation is based on being an Israelite/Jew and that the Gentile world has no part in it. These people (who are obviously Jewish) must have been shocked when Paul declared in the previous chapter that all of God's elect will be saved to the fullest (Rom. 8:30-39). For if that's the case, then it would appear that the Israelites were not really God's chosen people because many of them are hostile to the Gospel. Now if they were truly God's chosen, His promises to them therefore failed. In response, Paul explained in Romans 9 that not all who are Israelites according to the flesh really belong to the true spiritual Israel of God consisting of all the elect unto Salvation (v. 6-7). God choise (with regards to Salvation) is not based on what ethnic group you belong (therefore, an open door for the Gentiles also). Moreover, it is not based upon any human worth, but on God's mercy alone. Notice how Paul emphatically stressed that God's choice is not "on him who wills or runs" but based on His mercy alone. This truth complements the overall argument of Paul from Romans 8-11 which--beyond the Calvinistic interpretation--would not make any sense at all.Jephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04904821318321521552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-51802637784606244932012-02-01T04:32:29.086-06:002012-02-01T04:32:29.086-06:00As I understand the citations you quoted, Dort sim...As I understand the citations you quoted, Dort simply denies the idea that the divine predestination is based upon any foreseen merits ON MAN'S PART such as a faith, good works, etc., but those statements hardly equates to saying that God didn't have ANY REASON in himself why He chose certain persons unto salvation. In fact, Calvinists will tell you that while predestination is unconditional on man's part, God still has reasons for choosing one over the other which is reserved ti Himself as a secret divine counsel. <br /><br />You said you were not exaggerating the reformed position, but you actually did it on this particular point.Jephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04904821318321521552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-60658658903033983182012-02-01T04:32:27.903-06:002012-02-01T04:32:27.903-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04904821318321521552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-73946249497700729422012-01-31T10:10:43.376-06:002012-01-31T10:10:43.376-06:00Article 9 and 10 of the Canons of Dordt explicitly...Article 9 and 10 of the Canons of Dordt explicitly reject the idea that God's election is based upon any inherent distinction between the saved and the damned.<br /><br />Specifically, Canon 10 says that "the cause of this undeserved election is <b>exclusively</b> the good pleasure of God. This does not involve his choosing certain human qualities or actions from among all those possible as a condition of salvation, but rather involves his adopting certain particular persons from among the common mass of sinners as his own possession."<br /><br />So according to Dordt, if you ask why one person goes to Heaven, and another goes to Hell, the <b>only</b> explanation is the "good pleasure of God." He might send one twin to Heaven for all eternity, and another to Hell for all eternity, but it had nothing to do with their faith, or their works, or anything else. The faith and works of the saved twin are a <i>result</i> of his salvation, rather than a cause or fortification, within the Calvinist schema.<br /><br />I.X.,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-91525816943456537752012-01-31T10:03:00.550-06:002012-01-31T10:03:00.550-06:00May I ask the author of this post where did he get...May I ask the author of this post where did he get the idea that Calvinists "deny that [God] had any reason" for choosing the elect?Jephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04904821318321521552noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-36950967079618640192011-11-30T10:34:18.713-06:002011-11-30T10:34:18.713-06:00It appears that misunderstanding the Jew-Gentile d...It appears that misunderstanding the Jew-Gentile debate brought about by the Judaizers and underestimating its significance throughout the New Testament has really muddled things and is at the heart of many of the current disagreements. <br /><br />Too many Protestants read the Jew-Gentile dynamic in the NT as a Catholic-Protestant debate. Doing this causes them to miss the trajectory of St. Paul's (primarily) arguments against the Judaizers.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04653644792930523119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-15187704469080020672011-11-29T23:38:59.954-06:002011-11-29T23:38:59.954-06:00(7) This leads to the final realization, that Roma...(7) This leads to the final realization, that Romans 9 (which must be read as one thought with Ch10-11) is actually <b>attacking the Jewish heresy of Unconditional Election</b>. In the Jewish mind, God unconditionally predestined a person to be a Jew because He loved them more. Paul realized this was an abomination, and pointed out how throughout history people have lost their favored status by turning to sin. Re-read the chapter and you'll see everyone painted in negative light threw away their favored status, which is the antithesis of unconditional election. Paul's thesis is that of a Jew-Gentile dichotomy, not a saved-damned one! <br /><br />Consider how close to Romans 9 this passage in 2 Timothy 2:20-21 sounds:<br />"20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."<br /><br />And note the context in Romans 9 - YOU MUST EXAMINE PAUL's NUMEROUS OT REFERENCES IN CONTEXT - <br /><br />"22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 <b>AS HE SAYS IN HOSEA:<br /> “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;<br /> and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”</b>"<br /><br />Paul INTERPRETS HOSEA here as a prophecy for what he said in 22-24. The Context in Hosea is that God is going to say to "His People" the Jews "You are not my People" and the People who are "Not His People" the Gentiles will take on the name "My People". So the lesson is Israel is losing it's "firstborn" son status as Ishmael, Esau, and Pharaoh did and why Paul mentioned these guys.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-80559724855842263422011-11-29T23:38:46.950-06:002011-11-29T23:38:46.950-06:00Hopefully I'm not too late to this party. Some...Hopefully I'm not too late to this party. Some thoughts I'd like to share:<br /><br />(1) Regarding the "good news" of Calvinists, Joe is very correct that logically one cannot know if they are elect in Calvinism. This "now knowing" is of course disastrous, for it makes no sense to have joy about something you don't know actually applies to you or not. This is why most Calvinists believe the elect do know, but the embarrassing part is that their answers are purely subjective (e.g. "I must be elect because I'm following Christ"). Of course, this is even more exposed in Joe's powerhouse <a href="http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2010/06/assurance-of-salvation-and-evanescent.html" rel="nofollow">Evanascent Grace article</a> he posted last year.<br /><br /><br />(2) The issue of "Double Predestination" exposes a serious logical problem in the Calvinist scheme. Some Calvinists (e.g. Calvin) say God formed his plan of who to save *and* who to damn <b>before taking into account Adam's sin</b>, and thus Adam's sin had to be caused by God to accomplish his plan of putting souls on the road to hell. The majority of Calvinists reject this, and instead believe God chose who to save and who to damn <b>after taking into account Adam's sin</b>, but they're left with the logical dilemma about how Adam's own Predestination fits in here, and more importantly Adam's Free Will co-existing with God's Predestination in order to make the Fall not be 'foreordained' (i.e. not freely chosen). <br />p.s. some Fathers like John Chrysostom interpreted "predestined" in Rom 8:29 and Eph 1:14 as "predestined to Adoption" (i.e. to conversion to Christianity, not looking further than that).<br /><br /><br />(3) Despite the lack of Biblical evidence for a "Limited Atonement," Calvinists are forced to believe this because they believe in Penal Substitution. If Jesus took the punishment a given sinner deserved for his sins, that person obviously cannot be damned. Thus, if Jesus died in the place of everyone, then nobody would be damned, which is obviously false. Thus, Jesus must have only died for some, specifically those God predestined to be saved. But if Penal Substitionary Atonement is false, which it is, then that whole line of thinking collapses. <br /><br /><br />(4) This brings us to the next piece of the puzzle, Sola Fide. Sola Fide teaches Jesus did everything for the sinner since the sinner couldn't do it themself, and the sinner merely "accepts" this work of Christ on their behalf, especially Penal Substitution. Thus, Sola Fide needs Penal Substitution to survive. <br /><br />(5) But Joe brings up another common objection, which is that all this contradicts Scripture which teaches man isn't saved unless and until he believes, but this is all negated in a Calvinist scheme where man's salvation is already accomplished and the non-believer is damned for "rejecting" a Savior that in reality never was a Savior to him.<br /><br />(6) Joe quotes Romans 2:6ff, but I think 2:4-5 are just as powerful:<br />"<b>Or do you show contempt for the riches of God's kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?</b>" <br />Here Paul condemns a hypocritical sinner, pointing out God "forbearance and patience" (cf Rom 3:25) has the intention of good will so that the sinner will stop his sin and repent! In other words, that's not the talk of a God wanting a sinner to remain in sin. (Enter Pharaoh)Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-53885693063144630922011-11-29T22:08:05.423-06:002011-11-29T22:08:05.423-06:00I think what the Thomist position lacks is the tru...I think what the Thomist position lacks is the truth that God is love. I find it difficult to reconcile Thomism with a loving God. <br /><br />Molinism seems a lot more compatible with omnibenevolence, especially the idea that God chose to create the "best" of all counterfactual worlds while still allowing for the free will of man. This reconciles the absolute sovereignty of God with the gift of free will.<br /><br />But I don't pretend to know more than St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine or any other saint or scholar, this is just my humble opinion :)G Lainghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09736882298990748417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-25884137033532049462011-11-29T21:16:46.738-06:002011-11-29T21:16:46.738-06:00Thomist or Molinist or None of the above, as I und...Thomist or Molinist or None of the above, as I understand it, the initial choosing to receive grace is a grace. The *denial* of that fact is heresy.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-29583713777390568372011-11-29T18:43:25.745-06:002011-11-29T18:43:25.745-06:00Also, there is a somewhat dense piece on some of t...Also, there is a somewhat dense piece on some of the issues uncovered here in the Catholic Encyclopedia: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm<br /><br />It gives some color to many of the debates flying around here, it appears these debates have gone on a long time and they are somewhat intractable.Jon Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17983127089244244358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-30180437676337183802011-11-29T18:37:56.419-06:002011-11-29T18:37:56.419-06:00Ok, I see that that is heresy, but isn't Prede...Ok, I see that that is heresy, but isn't Predestinarianism something different. From the Catholic encyclopedia:<br /><br />Predestinarianism is a heresy not unfrequently met with in the course of the centuries which reduces the eternal salvation of the elect as well as the eternal damnation of the reprobate to one cause alone, <b>namely to the sovereign will of God</b>, and thereby excludes the free co-operation of man as a secondary factor in bringing about a happy or unhappy future in the life to come.<br /><br />Your analogy is a nice one and very helpful. I take it from your Chinese food analogy that you are a Molinist. Right?Jon Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17983127089244244358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-31558000860710350522011-11-29T18:11:33.569-06:002011-11-29T18:11:33.569-06:00Ah. No. The opposite is true. From the Council o...Ah. No. The opposite is true. From the Council of Orange:<br /><br />CANON 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me" (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).<br /><br />CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).<br /><br /><br />Two things to note:<br /><br />1) God gives these initial graces freely; and<br /><br />2) these graces enable us to respond to His Call: they don't force us to.<br /><br />If we're totally asleep in sin, we lack the ability to decide to be awake or asleep. It's only awake that we have that free will. God awaken us enough for us to choose to rise with Him, or go back down into our bed of sin.<br /><br />I.X.,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-12455294976385330882011-11-29T18:00:26.007-06:002011-11-29T18:00:26.007-06:00I meant the claim that "that first choosing o...I meant the claim that "that first choosing of accepting the grace is a grace".Jon Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17983127089244244358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-23946724148997249192011-11-29T17:47:22.393-06:002011-11-29T17:47:22.393-06:00Jon Anthony,
Isn't what Predestinatianism? I...Jon Anthony,<br /><br />Isn't what Predestinatianism? I can't tell what your "that" refers to.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-9960874893376770572011-11-29T17:40:41.695-06:002011-11-29T17:40:41.695-06:00Isn't that Predestinarianism and hasn't th...Isn't that Predestinarianism and hasn't that been deemed heretical?Jon Anthonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17983127089244244358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-37239186912770311442011-11-29T14:06:34.173-06:002011-11-29T14:06:34.173-06:00But that first choosing of accepting the grace is ...But that first choosing of accepting the grace is a grace I think, more than it would be considered a work.<br /><br />Wait that's too confusing.<br /><br />Down to brass tacks. The problem with using the phrase unconditional election is that those who advocate it don't believe it is unconditional, but rather that the only condition is God's election.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-88245184591592661202011-11-29T13:30:40.372-06:002011-11-29T13:30:40.372-06:00Right. That is a nice way to put it. In what sense...Right. That is a nice way to put it. In what sense is the grace sufficient, if it is never enough in actual circumstances? And if it is not sufficient in any meaningful sense, how is this consistent with God's salvific will for all?<br /><br />The better interpretation, and the one even Thomas seems to make at times, is that election is conditional on our accepting the sufficient grace offered to us. Otherwise, I don't think God is in any meaningful sense "impartial". Am I right?Latenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028986769458356612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-47823746784974601992011-11-29T12:45:44.842-06:002011-11-29T12:45:44.842-06:00Sweet! Free Catholic books on my Kindle = win!Sweet! Free Catholic books on my Kindle = win!Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-22843822391678082372011-11-29T12:35:22.096-06:002011-11-29T12:35:22.096-06:00Nice. Have you read Gother's A Papist Misrepr...Nice. Have you read Gother's <i><a href="http://www.archive.org/details/apapistmisrepres00gothuoft" rel="nofollow">A Papist Misrepresented and Represented</a></i>? It's a great book treating some of the same issues, and with the same goal as the article you linked to.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-87727331141797594572011-11-29T12:26:58.670-06:002011-11-29T12:26:58.670-06:00Didn't link the article. Fail. http://www.ew...Didn't link the article. Fail. http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/dontbelieve.HTMDanielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-49296531371720984582011-11-29T12:25:07.597-06:002011-11-29T12:25:07.597-06:00My conversion experience is:
7 point calvinist Re...My conversion experience is:<br /><br />7 point calvinist Republican Navy (me), meets Unitarian Republican Navy, Evangelical Protestant Republican Marine, and Jewish Republican Navy at a bar. Runs into Latin Mass going Christendom grads.<br /><br />Three of us become Catholic, and one becomes Greek Orthodox after 5 years of coffee, wine, cigars, and many many knock down drag out debates.<br /><br />My breaking point wasn't theology, but history. Warren Carroll's History of Christendom was the straw that broke the camel's back. I also credit my wife ( a revert), Fr Corapi on tv, A Tiptoe Through Tulip by Akin, and of course this article. And Protestant Josh McDowell's book Evidence that Demands a Verdict.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-91655120906869448292011-11-29T12:06:00.209-06:002011-11-29T12:06:00.209-06:00Daniel,
That is the view we have of the Atonement...Daniel,<br /><br />That <i>is</i> the view we have of the Atonement: that it's infinitely sufficient, but only efficacious as to the saved.<br /><br />What I think Robert is saying is that if conceptualize a category of people for whom the Atonement is sufficient, but under no circumstances efficacious, that seems to thwart the whole point of the unlimited nature of the Atonement. Robert, am I getting your argument right?<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-9269052434869447732011-11-29T11:05:29.645-06:002011-11-29T11:05:29.645-06:00For indulginces, the treasury of merit the church ...For indulginces, the treasury of merit the church has, I'd wager, is infinite. If so, it would be sufficient for all, but only efficacious to some in that context.<br /><br />Could it work the same way with salvation?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01915100833433055951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-2618997263629619252011-11-29T08:01:03.506-06:002011-11-29T08:01:03.506-06:00That is, in what sense is it "sufficient"...That is, in what sense is it "sufficient" if it never has and never will be enough for an actual person?Latenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028986769458356612noreply@blogger.com