tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post6498498320178878465..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: Taking Jesus at His Word in the EucharistJoe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-50343880777691246072011-01-05T14:27:58.363-06:002011-01-05T14:27:58.363-06:00Nick, good find. I've referenced both verse b...Nick, good find. I've referenced both verse before, and yet never connected them.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-67624417826486152622011-01-05T11:55:16.642-06:002011-01-05T11:55:16.642-06:00I think you missed a very important NT text that c...I think you missed a very important NT text that clearly supports the Catholic understanding of the Mass as a Sacrifice. I'm borrowing this from Trent's own decrees:<br /><br />Mal 1:6-8,<br />If then I am a father, where is my honor? And if I am a master, where is my fear? says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name. But you say, 'How have we despised your name?' <b>By offering polluted food upon my altar.</b> But you say, 'How have we polluted you?' <b>By saying that the LORD’s table may be despised.</b> 8 When you offer blind animals in sacrifice, is that not evil? And when you offer those that are lame or sick, is that not evil? <br /><br />The term "Lord's Table" is synonymous with Sacrificial Altar. And this is right in context with the famous Mal 1:11. <br /><br /><br />Now turn to 1 Corinthians 10: <br /><br />16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. <br />18Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. <b>You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.</b><br /><br />The context here is explicitly that of a sacrifice (the Jewish sacrifices and eating, the Christian sacrifices and eating, and the pagan sacrifices to idols and eating). The parallelism would be destroyed if this didn't carry over to the Eucharistic celebration. Note how when Paul says "You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons" the "table" here is none other than the Altar. Such imagery would not have been missed by the early Christians.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-45476756046875457282011-01-01T12:56:16.080-06:002011-01-01T12:56:16.080-06:00Honeycom,
With all due respect, you didn't in...Honeycom,<br /><br />With all due respect, you didn't interact with any of the points I made in the post at all. Specifically, I think that 2A, 3B, and 4H show that whatever else may be true, your view isn't sustainable Biblically<br /><br />If you will, permit me to take a different approach. I'll show the logic chain disproving your thesis, and you tell me where I go wrong, and we'll work from there:<br /><br />1. Christ died once for all, as we both agree, c. 32 A.D. But His Sacrifice is applied more than once.<br /><br />2. This Sacrifice was applied to each of us, two millennia later, when we were saved, for example. That application, by the power of the Holy Spirit, didn't cause Christ to be re-Sacrificed, right? <br /><br />3. Hebrews 10 says that through intentional sin, we can reject Christ's Sacrifice. Thus, if we are to repent and be saved, it must be re-applied.<br /><br />4. The Lords Prayer depicts God's forgiveness of our sins as an ongoing, even daily, process. So even for those who don't fall into the sort of mortal sin Heb 10 describes, the atoning Sacrifice is applied constantly, not just once (although certain particular applications, like Baptism, are indelible, and done only once). None of these applications of Christ's Sacrifice re-Sacrifice Him.<br /><br />5. To use the obvious analogy, the Passover Lamb is slain once, but serves endless portions. Go back for seconds doesn't re-Sacrifice the Lamb. In the OT, the killing and eating of the lamb were TWO separate rituals- interconnected, of course, but distinct.<br /><br />6. So, from 1-5, we know that we can re-offer the Lamb - repeatedly - without re-Sacrificing Him.<br /><br />In response, you say the Church wants it both ways: the Mass is a Sacrifice, but doesnt re-Sacrifice Christ. Nothing inconsistent here. Eating the Passover participates in the lamb's sacrifice, but the lamb isn't killed again. The confusion is that you're conflating Christ being killed once (true) with Christ's Sacrifice covering our sins once (false). Malachi 1:11-12 proves that in the New Covenant, the Perfect Sacrifice is repeatedly offered (although not repeatedly re-Sacrificed). That's the Mass. <br /><br />It's also a Sacrifice because we offer ourselves, humble and contrite as living sacrifices to God, and through our tithing (Romans 12:1; see also Philippians 2:17, 4:18; Heb. 13:15-16; 1 Peter 2:5).<br /><br />Finally, Christ instructs us “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift." (Matthew 5:23-24). Have you ever wondered why Christ speaks of us having altars? The purpose of an altar is clear: to offer Sacrifice. Yet Christ speaks of it as a thing which will exist amongst the Brethren, that is, the Church.<br /><br />Joe.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-90197197822905178742010-12-31T19:42:58.962-06:002010-12-31T19:42:58.962-06:00"(1) Why would the Lord of the Universe turn ..."(1) Why would the Lord of the Universe turn Himself into a piece of bread" <br /><br />He didn't. He turned a piece of bread into himself. <br /> <br />"so His followers believe they are consuming His body, blood, soul and divinity?"<br /><br />It seems that his followers believed it because it was true and for no other reason. The created flesh and blood of Christ partakes of properties not natural to them when they are joined to the uncreated divinity of Christ. It is not common flesh and blood. <br /><br />"(4) Let's take Jesus at His word."<br /><br />I think that was the point of Joe's post.Canadianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04294619762542082615noreply@blogger.com