tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post7630735610860016550..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: Purgatory and GhostsJoe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-70549477757030758262011-06-24T08:06:40.704-05:002011-06-24T08:06:40.704-05:00btw, joe, i have the html thing down! thanksbtw, joe, i have the html thing down! thanksscredsoxfan2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10162308671130564720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-71907986580073136342011-06-24T08:05:55.708-05:002011-06-24T08:05:55.708-05:00oldadam,
I dont, on principle, reject what your s...oldadam,<br /><br />I dont, on principle, reject what your saying because I think in all practical purposes we agree and are just using different terminology. However, the belief from Matthew 18 you mention here <i>is</i> an act of our free will (co-operation in the Catholic theology that I previously quoted to you from the Catechism which includes that even that "co-operation" is a result of God's work and not our own) that was given to us by God. Indeed, it is this "work" which we must do, even if we may be unaware of that work ourselves (this explains why Catholic doctrine leaves the door open even for those who may not be Baptised, because surely that is for God to decide not us). If we are not required to accept God by turning to him ourselves but God saves us anyway then there is no such thing as free will in any sense. This is a basic tenant of Christian faith, if you don't have to turn to God why should I even be baptised? Why does Christ call us to participate in these things? If what you are proclaiming is true, I should just live according to my interests and he'll just choose to save me anyway... <br /><br />and i know you don't agree with me, so please point out where we actually disagree....not based on Luther's semantics, definitions, and misunderstandings of Catholic teaching, because then you'd be relying on something not Christ centered...scredsoxfan2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10162308671130564720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-41936853947771154832011-06-23T23:13:46.106-05:002011-06-23T23:13:46.106-05:00Joe, No need for apologies, at all. I know you hav...Joe, No need for apologies, at all. I know you have a lot going on.<br /><br />(BTW, how dod your radio interview go?)<br /><br /><br />Yeah, I do realize that we are pretty much alone on the Law/Gospel paradigm. (one of the reasons that I think we are right! :D)<br /><br />I would classify Matt 18 23-35 as law. All the way.<br /><br />But then we look at other gospel texts, such as the parable of the workers in the field. And also in John they asked him, "What is it to do the works of the Father?" And Jesus replied, "...believe in the one whom the Father has sent."<br /><br />And there are a lot more as well.<br /><br />Enjoying the discussion, very much, Joe.<br /><br />Thanks again, my friend. Gonna hit the hay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-29796927956687692692011-06-23T19:53:00.571-05:002011-06-23T19:53:00.571-05:00Old Adam,
First off, I was a bit short in my last...Old Adam,<br /><br />First off, I was a bit short in my last response, so sorry about that. I do think you're violating the very "putting theology over the teachings of Jesus" trap you accuse everyone else of, but there were more charitable ways of raising that.<br /><br />As to Law and Gospel, assume that the Lutheran dichotomy is right. (Leave to one side that virtually all non-Lutherans reject this precise approach, both now and throughout history). If true, it would explain the two examples you raised, but would it address Matthew 6:14-15? <br /><br />If that passage is Law, we would be in the position of saying that (1) Jesus taught that God's forgiveness comes through Law, and that (2) we pray to be judged under the Law every time we pray the Lord's Prayer. Obviously, that can't be right.<br /><br />Instead, Mt. 6:14-15 is the very definition of "Gospel" within the Lutheran schema. It's even your own definition: "But He loves and forgives us. That's the gospel."<br /><br />Jesus presents His forgiveness as unmerited, but not unconditional, a distinction made clear in Mt. 18:23-35. If you reject this teaching of Christ's as not true Gospel, wouldn't that justify rejecting the Lord's Prayer as well?<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-85615254300404106932011-06-23T19:13:10.210-05:002011-06-23T19:13:10.210-05:00Joe,
We don't ignore them, but they are law ...Joe,<br /><br /> We don't ignore them, but they are law sayingss (not gospel) meant to expose our sinfulness and drive us to Himself.<br /><br />He knows what we are made of. He knows that we are unwilling to live the life He led.<br /><br />But He loves and forgives us.<br /><br />That's the gospel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-3700156251833400342011-06-23T19:05:05.398-05:002011-06-23T19:05:05.398-05:00Maybe I'm not understanding your point. It sou...Maybe I'm not understanding your point. It sounds as if you're saying that Jesus has hard teachings, so we should ignore them. What are you actually saying?Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-85134191213681883432011-06-23T18:35:15.150-05:002011-06-23T18:35:15.150-05:00You had better make sure that you have really forg...You had better make sure that you have really forgiven everyone, then, and that your motives were truly sincere and not motivated by the self.<br /><br />Jesus' own words. "You must be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect."<br /><br />"Whoever does not divest themselves of all that they own cannot be my disciple."<br /><br />How are you doing with those, Joe?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-6965051888440609092011-06-23T18:22:18.002-05:002011-06-23T18:22:18.002-05:00It seems to me that Matthew 6:14-15 could not be c...It seems to me that Matthew 6:14-15 could not be clearer that it is a condition on God's forgiveness. <br /><br />I understand that these Scriptures contradict your theology, but why should I take Luther's claims about God's forgiveness over Jesus' own?Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-16210302303417246892011-06-23T18:13:33.380-05:002011-06-23T18:13:33.380-05:00Joe,
We pray the Lord's Prayer every Sunday...Joe,<br /><br /> We pray the Lord's Prayer every Sunday and fervantly believe it (Him).<br /><br />I did read the post (the link you provided) and could not disagree more with your theology on the matter.<br /><br />Those of us with children know that when our children are disobedient, and unforgiving, we still love and forgive them. They are still our kids.<br /><br />God is the same way with His children. He doesn't forgive us BECAUSE we forgive others. He forgives us because He loves us. There are NO conditions attached to that love and forgiveness based on WHAT WE DO. Then it wouldn't be grace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-48206517364289567632011-06-23T17:51:07.977-05:002011-06-23T17:51:07.977-05:00Some ghost tales are clearly purgatorial.
A cou...Some ghost tales are clearly purgatorial. <br /><br />A couple's small girl walked after her death, and when they watched her intently, they realized she was going to a plank in the floor and trying to pull it up. When they looked there, they found a coin her mother had given her to give to a beggar. When they gave it to a beggar, she no longer walked.<br /><br />A farmer who had moved a boundary stone walked after his death, a grisly sight, carrying the stone and asking where he should put it. Everyone ran away in terror until he met a shepherd too stupid to be afraid, who told him to put it back where he found it. The next morning, the boundary stone had shifted back to its proper place and the ghost never walked again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-84407491553241791422011-06-23T17:05:07.532-05:002011-06-23T17:05:07.532-05:00I have no experience of ghosts but I find the ques...I have no experience of ghosts but I find the question to be interesting.<br /><br />I fell off of my chair some years ago when I was listening to an EWTN show featuring Colin Donovan, their "Chief Theologian." I don't recall the exact nature of the question but Donovan responded saying that the possibility of ghosts does exist and is not incompatible with Catholic teaching. <br /><br />For some reasons unknown to us, God might choose to allow some individuals to roam the world after death as spirits to resolve an issue in their lives.<br /><br />You don't get too much higher an authority in the Church than Colin Donovan.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08332138030182107580noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-22120231189811079252011-06-23T16:24:24.460-05:002011-06-23T16:24:24.460-05:00Steve,
I'm not 100% sure I'm understandin...Steve,<br /><br />I'm not 100% sure I'm understanding the distinctions you're drawing, but perhaps you'd be the person to respond to <a href="http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/06/can-classical-protestantism-affirm.html" rel="nofollow">this</a>. My view is that the scheme of sin you've just described runs headlong into some serious Scriptural problems, but maybe you'll see things a different way.<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />Joe.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-47157506978739721502011-06-23T16:21:15.345-05:002011-06-23T16:21:15.345-05:00Joe,
Yes. We Lutherans believe that the sinful s...Joe,<br /><br /> Yes. We Lutherans believe that the sinful self is put to death in Baptism. <br /><br /> In this external act of God, He puts us to death (Romans 6) and then raises us to new life in Christ (Romans 6)...and this is NOT just a one time event...but that Baptism carries us through our lives and is something that we return to (daily) as Luther said, so that we could have the assurance of our salvation.<br /><br /> Also, in Romans 6, St. Paul tells us that we are to CONSIDER ourselves "dead to sin". <br /><br /> Not that we don't sin anymore (Romans 7 makes that clear, along with our own lives), but that the promise made to us in Baptism is God's promise and it is always good and valid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-8249428425627404402011-06-23T15:39:58.072-05:002011-06-23T15:39:58.072-05:00Steve,
Are you basing your opposition off of the ...Steve,<br /><br />Are you basing your opposition off of the understanding that once we're Baptized, we don't sin? Or that Baptism cleanses us from future sin, or something of the sort?Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-59507651491495798982011-06-23T15:34:35.577-05:002011-06-23T15:34:35.577-05:00Something just seems so odd to me.
If we are made...Something just seems so odd to me.<br /><br />If we are made new, cleansed, and "put on Christ" (Galatians 4), and this is accomolished by Christ Jesus for us at the cross and in our Baptisms (also Galatians 4), then what more needs to be done AFTER we die???<br /><br />It seems a very strange, and contrary to Scripture, notion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-69162264090593279642011-06-23T15:14:22.065-05:002011-06-23T15:14:22.065-05:00Carlos,
It's a good question. "Ghost&qu...Carlos,<br /><br />It's a good question. "Ghost" is just the German word for "spirit," so the real question is, why might some spirits be active in the world? <br /><br />(1) Of the souls in Heaven come the authentic saintly apparitions. <br /><br />(2) From purgatory, Jimmy Akin says, "there are even reports in Catholic history that spirits in purgatory have--by God's will--occasionally manifested themselves to those on earth. In these cases, those on earth may see the spirits experiencing their purgation in some way." <br /><br />(3) Of the rest, I shudder to think. They seem unavoidably... diabolical. Whether it's some part of their torments on Earth, or whether they're perhaps not the souls of the departed at all (but something yet worse) is a question I can't answer.<br /><br />Joe.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-35919126718931310582011-06-23T15:08:44.527-05:002011-06-23T15:08:44.527-05:00But what happened to the topic at hand as it appli...But what happened to the topic at hand as it applies to ghosts? I have often wondered about this because, much to my dismay, I believe in the existence of ghosts as I have experienced them first hand. My concerns are that: <br />a) They can't be the saved because no one would leave the beatific vision to go do anything else, as nothing is better than that, <br />b) I don't believe they are souls in purgatory because they would be solely focused on their grief and making reparations, <br />c) you know what c) is. And that's what makes ghosts scary. <br /><br />It may be a difficult topic to treat seriously, but once you've experienced it, there's no way not to.Grimaudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07504263369682259177noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-31689518002552421312011-06-23T15:00:57.836-05:002011-06-23T15:00:57.836-05:00A Heaven full of snow-covered dunghills.
Thanks,...A Heaven full of snow-covered dunghills. <br /><br />Thanks, this was the logic I was failing to communicate to Old Adam in one of your earlier posts.Restless Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401126921440086739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-25093993150516204512011-06-23T13:18:10.009-05:002011-06-23T13:18:10.009-05:00my favorite part is the footnote ;)my favorite part is the footnote ;)scredsoxfan2https://www.blogger.com/profile/10162308671130564720noreply@blogger.com