tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post8427838419594021395..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: Mormons at Your Door: Evangelizing the MissionariesJoe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-21414438966804524722013-09-20T03:38:40.094-05:002013-09-20T03:38:40.094-05:00well, i have seen of a documentary. either in dis...well, i have seen of a documentary. either in discovery channel or history channel.<br />that mormons founder has lied,cheated, and made his own bible supposedly made by "moses" that he interpreted from an Egyptian tablet he bought.<br />i forgot the whole story but its in the video. part21https://www.blogger.com/profile/11714330629692978924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-74079512574300925022011-07-07T20:45:17.139-05:002011-07-07T20:45:17.139-05:00And in modern English, if you murder someone, you ...And in modern English, if you murder someone, you also killed him.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-68566943002189381122011-07-07T00:36:30.717-05:002011-07-07T00:36:30.717-05:00@marycatelli, In KJV Gen. 4:8 "...Cain rose u...@marycatelli, In KJV Gen. 4:8 "...Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him." I would call that version of slew murder.Jennaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01644756694257336764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-6024436441568276652011-07-05T20:51:11.573-05:002011-07-05T20:51:11.573-05:00Because the Bible tells me so.
The Bible tells me...<i>Because the Bible tells me so.<br /><br />The Bible tells me that Jesus loves me(us) and forgives me(us).<br /><br />The Holy Spirit creates faith in that Word.<br /><br />There is power in the gospel Word (Romans 1 :16).</i><br /><br />Only if you got the right Bible. Besides, where does the Bible tell you that those two are the important things so you can ignore everything else in it? It seems to me to say the exact opposite.<br /><br /><i>If there were no Bible, we would still know it because that Word gets spoken to people and creates faith. As St. Paul said, "Faith comes by hearing". </i><br /><br />I'm glad you admit the effectiveness of the Sacred Tradition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-12926774496967229362011-07-05T20:48:07.300-05:002011-07-05T20:48:07.300-05:00I've seen a few people here who suggest prayin...<i>I've seen a few people here who suggest praying for truth doesn't work. The Bible says it does. James 1:5 promises us God will tell us if we ask. Jesus admonished us to pray. Me? I believe God keeps His promises and that if he says he will give me answers, then He will also figure out how to make me recognize those answers as being from Him. I trust God and it baffles me when I'm attacked on that issue.</i><br /><br />So -- do you also hold that everyone who disagrees with you obviously did it wrong?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-26631091466314988862011-07-05T05:43:28.065-05:002011-07-05T05:43:28.065-05:00theoldadam,
Good. Then can we stop all the poetry...theoldadam,<br /><br />Good. Then can we stop all the poetry and agree to agree that "living" and "active" imply works of some kind, a participation with the grace of Christ given ordinarily through the Sacraments?<br /><br />Reading through this thread and other threads made me think you were trying on purpose to be obscurant. This last comment makes sense and is consonant with Catholic teaching. Thank you.<br /><br />Peace to you on your journey,<br /><br />BrentBrent Stubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814899666244618561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-37348416343276623532011-07-04T21:33:11.180-05:002011-07-04T21:33:11.180-05:00Brent,
Agreed.
We Lutherans do not believe that...Brent,<br /><br /> Agreed.<br /><br />We Lutherans do not believe that 'faith' is intellectual assent.<br /><br />We believe it is a living, active trust, given to us by God, and fostered by God through the hearing of His Word and through the Sacraments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-58698530589327890812011-07-04T12:51:35.599-05:002011-07-04T12:51:35.599-05:00theoldadam,
But faith requires something more tha...theoldadam,<br /><br />But faith requires something more than just intellectual assent.<br /><br />I read in the Bible--the Gospel--about faith without works, of action motivated by belief. Abraham did this by faith, Noah did this by faith, Rachel did this by faith...No one just said, "I believe".<br /><br />If I believe it is raining, I will get an umbrella. If I don't get an umbrella, I get wet and (apparently) I didn't <i>really</i> believe it was raining.<br /><br />A burning in your bosom isn't a good ground for knowledge or faith. Both require a concrete grounding in reality. If not, God would have simply declared the good news from a dirigible. "See"..."Believe".<br /><br />He didn't. He came into time/space as a someone like you and me and died, brutally. We must also die. It can get brutal, but that's life.<br /><br />Peace,<br /><br />BrentBrent Stubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814899666244618561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-1038522667140284292011-07-04T11:01:41.192-05:002011-07-04T11:01:41.192-05:00marycatelli,
Because the Bible tells me so.
The ...marycatelli,<br /><br />Because the Bible tells me so.<br /><br />The Bible tells me that Jesus loves me(us) and forgives me(us).<br /><br />The Holy Spirit creates faith in that Word.<br /><br />There is power in the gospel Word (Romans 1 :16).<br /><br /><br />If there were no Bible, we would still know it because that Word gets spoken to people and creates faith. As St. Paul said, "Faith comes by hearing".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-45630563909934313912011-07-04T10:40:26.336-05:002011-07-04T10:40:26.336-05:00It was kind of fun for me to read this blog, becau...It was kind of fun for me to read this blog, because I have been in those missionaries shoes many times before. At the beginning of my mission it ended about the same way, by me getting stumped by my lack of knowledge, but toward the end of my mission I could carry on a much better conversation. Since we as missionaries are taught to teach the basic foundational beliefs, and considering that we are only 19-23 in age, that is probably plenty of material to get good at teaching. We are even advised to avoid going far beyond the basic lessons, because then we start to focus on trying to "prove" our beliefs scripturally, instead of trying to gain a testimony through the Holy Spirit, which is the only source of testimony (see my next paragraph). If you feel that you need more than that, you need to visit something like fairlds.org, because these guys address more in depth apologetics, although it is not an official church source. <br /><br />I think it is interesting that you focus so much on the fallibility of prayer, and following the Holy Spirit, because according to 1 Cor. 12:3 that is the only source of testimony. While I agree that we cannot rely on prayer alone, I think it is pretty clear that we can never have a knowledge of anything, including the divinity of Christ, without personal revelation. Seems to me that you are "Disarming" God's "Best Weapon."<br /><br />1 Cor. 12:3-<br />Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.<br /><br />By the way, your contradictory scriptures on polygamy is really a misuse of scripture by avoiding context. That really wasn't fair to the missionaries. The rest of the Book of Mormon scripture is as <br />follows. <br /><br />Jacob 2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.<br /><br />This is saying that there are times that God will give his people more than one wife, if there is a purpose like to "raise up seed." The Doctrine and Covenants say that their sin was not in polygamy, it was only in taking wives that were not given them by God, and mentions specifically the case of David. It does not say that Solomon didn't do a similar thing.<br /><br />Well, thank so much for being so nice to the missionaries, it sometimes ends with hurt feelings, and just mean things being said to missionaries. The last section on the importance of Charity is great, thank you. And I hope you are being as open minded as you want those missionaries to be. <br /><br />BradBradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16281815511975284848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-15245526322278859012011-07-04T08:32:38.617-05:002011-07-04T08:32:38.617-05:00If you pull the gospel out of the text (the forgiv...<i>If you pull the gospel out of the text (the forgiveness of sins and love for sinners), then I believe that Scripture is properly interpreted.</i><br /><br />How can you know that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-8617217390125583072011-07-04T05:59:46.616-05:002011-07-04T05:59:46.616-05:00Brock,
God is the One who makes those decisions...Brock,<br /><br /> God is the One who makes those decisions.<br /><br /> He has decided to make faith the goal.<br /><br /> "What is it to do the works of the Father" (they asked Jesus), Jesus replied, "...believe in the one whom the Father has sent."<br /><br /> God gives us faith as a gift. He gives that which He commands. <br /><br /> That's pretty gracious!<br /><br />But not everyone hears the gospel message and so not everyone receives faith.<br /><br />This is a mystery which we won't ever resolve down here.<br /><br />Me thinks.<br /><br />Thanks, Brock.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-34952953939384826542011-07-03T23:26:44.909-05:002011-07-03T23:26:44.909-05:00@theoldadam
It makes sense that faith under those...@theoldadam<br /><br />It makes sense that faith under those paramater would not require works. In fact, I'm shocked you're certain it requires faith, with the ability to interpret away the meaning of scriptures. Wouldn't Christ be that much more valuable if it didn't even require faith? Why limit God's ability and infinite love... Seems to be the next step, one that Rob Bell seems to come to in his most recent book.<br /><br /><br />BrockBrock Talkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09990965125533607727noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-81491120596194980282011-07-03T18:24:12.292-05:002011-07-03T18:24:12.292-05:00Brent,
Start with Christ. And then, end with Ch...Brent,<br /><br /> Start with Christ. And then, end with Christ. And in the middle....Christ.<br /><br />So the gospel ought be the grid through which everything else can be understood.<br /><br /> If you pull the gospel out of the text (the forgiveness of sins and love for sinners), then I believe that Scripture is properly interpreted.<br /><br /> The law (that which we do) has already been tried and we were (are) failures at it. God knows this about us, and that is why He sent us a Savior.<br /><br /> That, I believe, is the proper way to interpret Scripture. Law/Gospel. The law to convict of sins and expose our need of a Savior...and then the gospel, the free gift of Christ Jesus for our forgiveness and justification.<br /><br />Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-22866688185372821462011-07-03T11:29:26.413-05:002011-07-03T11:29:26.413-05:00theoldadam,
So, to me, it would make no sense to ...theoldadam,<br /><br /><i>So, to me, it would make no sense to make a mortal, sinful person (even though that person is one of Jesus', as we all (here) are.)</i><br /><br />1. How is this scripture interpreting scripture? ("to me")<br /><br />2. God uses the foolish things of men to confound the wise. Jesus built his O.T. people on the patriarchs. "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...". He changed Abram's name and he changed Simon's name as well. Not a coincidence.<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />BrentBrent Stubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814899666244618561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-4467405077882468212011-07-03T10:20:11.535-05:002011-07-03T10:20:11.535-05:00theoldadam,
If Scripture interprets Scripture, wh...theoldadam,<br /><br />If Scripture interprets Scripture, which scripture should I start with in interpreting the rest of it? That decision, <i>ipso facto</i>, proves that interpretation must require an agent outside of the text since there is nothing in the scripture that is a sufficient cause for determining the interpretative starting point of the rest of Scripture.<br /><br />To posit anything otherwise is to suggest an infinite regress of causes, since one can always think of <i>another</i> scripture to start from when one posits any particular scripture that should serve as the starting point of interpretation. (one can think of <i>another</i> interpretation for that matter)<br /><br />Nonetheless, I can agree that exegesis requires considering all of Scripture, but interpretation is a human activity, and the truth something we comprehend "with all the saints" (Eph 3:18) in the Church that is the "ground and pillar of truth" (1 Tim 3:15).<br /><br />PeaceBrent Stubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814899666244618561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-70816328278580657422011-07-03T10:06:40.138-05:002011-07-03T10:06:40.138-05:00Seth R,
Yes, St. Peter and his faith--his confess...Seth R,<br /><br />Yes, St. Peter and <i>his faith</i>--his confession--can both be understood as the rock (hope you will read the articles I referenced). <br /><br />Even more, Peter's confession points to his particular teaching role in the Church, a message that is reinforced by Christ asking him over and over to "feed his sheep", praying that his "faith would not fail him", his dogmatic interpretation the O.T. in Acts 2:17, and what he does in Acts 15:<br /><br />"The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. <i>After there had been much debate</i>, <strong>Peter stood up and said to them</strong>, (this is important since they were all seated) “Brethren, you know that [fn] in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us…”<br /><br />Peace to you on your journeyBrent Stubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17814899666244618561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-65382228049533766532011-07-03T10:01:46.886-05:002011-07-03T10:01:46.886-05:00Agreed. Scripture interprets Scripture.Agreed. Scripture interprets Scripture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-57975513042708780252011-07-03T09:02:29.839-05:002011-07-03T09:02:29.839-05:00So, to me, it would make no sense to make a mortal...<i>So, to me, it would make no sense to make a mortal, sinful person (even though that person is one of Jesus', as we all (here) are.)</i><br /><br />This is why no Scripture is a matter of personal interpretation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-88005578818059431912011-07-03T08:58:14.861-05:002011-07-03T08:58:14.861-05:00If Jesus had much of an education he probably woul...<i>If Jesus had much of an education he probably would have spoken Greek as well as Aramaic. Lots of people in Israel at that time spoke both.</i><br /><br />Even if true -- so what?<br /><br />"Kephas." In John, we are explicitly told it was Kephas and is only transliterated Peter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-66777005699572604422011-07-03T08:54:34.896-05:002011-07-03T08:54:34.896-05:00From the Catholic point of view, sending someone o...<i>From the Catholic point of view, sending someone out ill equipped to discuss theology is a disaster waiting to happen. </i><br /><br />How true. The aim is to attempt to be all things to all men in hope of saving at least some of them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-89829172848586241372011-07-03T08:52:07.749-05:002011-07-03T08:52:07.749-05:00If Jesus had much of an education he probably woul...If Jesus had much of an education he probably would have spoken Greek as well as Aramaic. Lots of people in Israel at that time spoke both.Seth R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13769247769345052208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-67448764224229582892011-07-03T08:48:46.331-05:002011-07-03T08:48:46.331-05:00The Church was built on The Rock, which is revelat...<i>The Church was built on The Rock, which is revelation from God to His church, and Peter was the rock, the REVELATOR, thru whom God would speak to His church. One was Petros, one was Petra, and I can't remember which was which, but one was the big rock (revelation) and the other was the small rock (revelator).</i><br /><br />Except that Jesus did not speak Greek. He spoke Aramic. And the actual term was "Kephas" -- Rock -- which is transliterated as Peter for the name because Petra is a girl's name, but is the same for both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-13188963718819474112011-07-03T08:30:12.954-05:002011-07-03T08:30:12.954-05:00Sorry for misunderstanding Brent.
So, if I unders...Sorry for misunderstanding Brent.<br /><br />So, if I understand you correctly, interpreting the rock as not only Peter, but ALSO the confession that Peter made, is consistent with Catholic thought?<br /><br />If so, we may have little disagreement on that particular part of the passage.<br /><br />I'll see about the other stuff you requested.Seth R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13769247769345052208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-66292444299063209142011-07-03T07:20:05.586-05:002011-07-03T07:20:05.586-05:00What is (or should be) the entire focus or center ...What is (or should be) the entire focus or center for the Christian life?<br /><br />Jesus Christ.<br /><br />So, to me, it would make no sense to make a mortal, sinful person (even though that person is one of Jesus', as we all (here) are.)<br /><br />So, the Rock is the confession of faith that Peter spoke. And even that confession of faith was a gift of God (Blessed are you Simon Peter for flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven")<br /><br />Does this invalidate the Body and Blood of our dear Lord Jesus in the Lord's Supper?<br /><br />NO!<br /><br />Jesus said that it IS his body, it IS his blood... "do this...".<br /><br />When we "do this", when we attach His promises to the bread and the wine (His Word)...then He is there, in it...working His will in the life of the person receiving it.<br /><br />That's the Lutheran take.<br /><br />Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com