tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post86567710505649435..comments2023-10-30T08:00:43.585-05:00Comments on Shameless Popery: The Three "Reformation Day" IroniesJoe Heschmeyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-48585849995673391362011-11-09T00:31:42.266-06:002011-11-09T00:31:42.266-06:00"Reformation" should be really called &q..."Reformation" should be really called "Revolt" because I guess that is really what it seemed to be. People just went hog wild.MichelleP12https://www.blogger.com/profile/01645891731976224369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-9612204952396184892011-11-01T19:31:32.876-05:002011-11-01T19:31:32.876-05:00This is brilliant!This is brilliant!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14702278020570844195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-67688952394031429592011-11-01T17:39:43.973-05:002011-11-01T17:39:43.973-05:00What is also little known is that Luther actually ...What is also little known is that Luther actually believed in Purgatory and Indulgences at the time he posted the 95 - the catch was that he was protesting abuses of them, not the doctrines themselves. <br /><br />This protest opened the door for a later rejection, but it's ironic to celebrate the 95 when the 95 still affirmed Catholic doctrine.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-52990237183108661472011-11-01T16:38:01.831-05:002011-11-01T16:38:01.831-05:00Mr. Mcgranor,
I suppose you didn't read the l...Mr. Mcgranor,<br /><br />I suppose you didn't read the link to the Lutheran website explaining that he <i>didn't</i> actually nail the Theses to the door? And I suppose you haven't actually read the Theses either, or you'd realize that Luther's (initial) express intent wasn't to foster a "spirit of such dissent," but to better enforce what he believed the pope and the Gospel were calling for.<br /><br />As for your last sentence, we're back to celebrating divorce. The whole point of the Reformation was that it wasn't supposed to be a Rejection. Luther was even fine with the papacy, so long as it played the role he (Luther) thought it should play.<br /><br />So when you celebrate the rejection and resistance of Rome, you're celebrating the Reformation's failure, not its success. <br /><br />God bless,<br /><br />Joe<br /><br />P.S. You might also learn a bit from reading Stanley Hauerwas' homily, linked to in my last comment. Hauerwas is a pretty popular Methodist-leaning Episcopalian theologian, if you're not familiar.Joe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-34804917202852734972011-11-01T13:58:02.564-05:002011-11-01T13:58:02.564-05:00He with/by providence nailed such to the door. It ...He with/by providence nailed such to the door. It is not that all follow the Theses; but the spirit of such dissent. Christ is commemorated on Reformation Day that with him we reject and resist Rome.Mr. Mcgranorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12851136550476241757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-55706088907494407402011-11-01T09:55:38.398-05:002011-11-01T09:55:38.398-05:00Rev. Hans,
Have you read Stanley Hauerwas' 19...Rev. Hans,<br /><br />Have you read Stanley Hauerwas' <a href="http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/10/stanley-hauerwas-on-reformation-sunday/" rel="nofollow">1995 Reformation Sunday homily</a>? It sounds a similar note, and is generally quite excellent. <br /><br />God bless,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-83614082932491548532011-11-01T09:52:47.357-05:002011-11-01T09:52:47.357-05:00Many Lutherans have not given up the idea of refor...Many Lutherans have not given up the idea of reform with the Reformation. I will admit that we probalby all know some Protestants that are completely ignorant of the facts of the Reformation or the reason for it. The sermon on Sunday was about Reformation Day and the constant need for reform in every church. The Lutheran Church (as I experience and see it) is still a reform movement. We are a reform movement within the catholic church, but we should still strive to be a reform movement within the Catholic church. I am sure that many faithful Catholics do not want to hear from Lutherans. I can understand how many will see Reformation Day as celebrating the divorce, which breaks my heart. It should renew Protestants and Catholics to work together for reform and possible reunion.Rev. Dark Hanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12380701786666466708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-46613681725814909102011-10-31T21:06:32.320-05:002011-10-31T21:06:32.320-05:00I really liked your #2 idea.
For your #3, I woul...I really liked your #2 idea. <br /><br />For your #3, I would expand on that to include the fact Protestants today have totally forgotten about the "Reform" part, and instead settled down on their own paths with no connection whatsoever to the reformation. Bryan Cross brilliantly compares it to an Occupy Wall Street movement that ends up settling down in the park, forgetting why it was protesting, and starting a new life in tents: <br /><br />http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2011/10/reformation-sunday-2011-how-would-protestants-know-when-to-return/Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-428830775126274122011-10-31T19:05:10.760-05:002011-10-31T19:05:10.760-05:00Many, many errors are overreactions to other error...Many, many errors are overreactions to other errors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-57678374535310868072011-10-31T18:15:30.604-05:002011-10-31T18:15:30.604-05:00Thanks for a great and wonderful laugh. I think I...Thanks for a great and wonderful laugh. I think I might print this out and send it to a Presbyterian friend of mine who didn't accompany me across the Tiber. He is still lamenting my decision 10 years after the fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-35307828473969852362011-10-31T18:05:48.735-05:002011-10-31T18:05:48.735-05:00I remember the first time I read a book specifical...I remember the first time I read a book specifically about the Reformation. It was produced by the BBC, hardly friendly towards the Catholic Church. In fact, they tried to associate Martin Luther with Martin Luther King Jr, saying that they both exhibited the same revolutionary spirit which rebelled against an unjust system.<br /><br />Anyhoo...I found the book grueling. Hearing about reformers arguing among themselves...about schism and schism... It was sooooo depressing! And this was something worth celebrating?!Restless Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16401126921440086739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-48108060688433912052011-10-31T15:42:00.559-05:002011-10-31T15:42:00.559-05:00Fascinating, Joe. Thanks for the info!Fascinating, Joe. Thanks for the info!JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-36201510169080985322011-10-31T13:38:40.579-05:002011-10-31T13:38:40.579-05:00Thanks! And Joanna, the Reformation is surrounded...Thanks! And Joanna, the Reformation is surrounded by Protestant mythology, particularly in the English-speaking world. Scholars and many religious leaders recognize this, but the average believer? Not so much. I tried to correct that a bit with the Pope Leo X post, but the truth is, I could have a busy blog focusing just on Reformation myths. Michael Spencer recognized this in his list of reasons for not celebrating Reformation Day:<br /><br />"-I am becoming increasingly sure that many things in the typical Reformation story are probably mythological, or most nearly so.<br /><br />-I’m especially convinced that a lot of the typical “Luther story” is probably historically inaccurate. Not necessarily untrue, but plenty of mythology in the mix.<br /><br />-I am very sure that the humanist and Catholic contribution to the reform of Christianity has been considerably obscured in the creation of a Protestant mythology."<br /><br />Unwittingly proving his point, one of the first replies was from a Protestant name James, who replied:<br /><br />"Pathetic! You make the Reformation sound like a sad collision of accidents! The Papists LITERALLY chained the Bible to the Lectern for a thousand years, and Luther wrote it in the language of the common man. God had the printing press invented at the same time, and POW!!!!"<br /><br />Of course, these are more half-truths with large doses of mythology and error. <br /><br />(1) The Bibles were chained to the Lecterns and in the Libraries to prevent them from being stolen (being hand-written and ornately decorated, they were incredibly valuable), just like the reference section of a library today. It wasn't to prevent access to the laity. In fact, these Bibles were the only way to realistically get Bibles into the hands of the common folk in an age before the printing press.<br /><br />(2) Luther's Bible was hardly the first German Bible (Protestants routinely get this fact wrong). As Wikipedia noted, "In total, there were at least eighteen complete German Bible editions, ninety editions in the vernacular of the Gospels and the readings of the Sundays and Holy Days, and some fourteen German Psalters by the time Luther first published his own New Testament translation."<br /><br />(3) The printing press was invented by a Catholic, who used it to distribute the Latin Vulgate to a wider audience... because Catholics love Sacred Scripture.<br /><br />James views this history as part of a great salvation narrative, and that's certainly how the history of the Reformation was written by English-speaking Protestants for centuries. But the trouble is, that story is almost entirely propaganda, not history. The nailing of the 95 Theses is just one of probably hundreds of widespread myths about what the Reformation was like.<br /><br />God bless,<br /><br />JoeJoe Heschmeyerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06998682878420098470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-3941277137861187122011-10-31T12:54:54.663-05:002011-10-31T12:54:54.663-05:00I was Lutheran (ELCA) for 22 years and I never kne...I was Lutheran (ELCA) for 22 years and I never knew that the nailing of the theses on the Church door was a myth. I remember a "Reformation Day" sermon at one of the Lutheran Churches I went to in college - they had a guy dress up like Martin Luther and talk about why he nailed the theses to the door, even.<br /><br />Ironically, in my childhood Lutheran church we never celebrated Reformation Day, but we did celebrate the Feast of St. Nicholas!JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-69319229409070364682011-10-31T11:37:14.157-05:002011-10-31T11:37:14.157-05:00Awesome points! Great post.Awesome points! Great post.Spence Ohanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11555037053211287265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4999044146888823867.post-37095510968110378722011-10-31T11:36:43.291-05:002011-10-31T11:36:43.291-05:00Yes Joe! I love the clever irony that you are poin...Yes Joe! I love the clever irony that you are pointing out (especially the John-O-Lantern), and as I was reading I couldn't understand why anyone would celebrate a clear breaking of the Church. You said it perfectly;<br /><br />"Why celebrate divorce!?"<br /><br />Thank you and keep the blogs coming!Shane Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01198765568184926540noreply@blogger.com